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The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

arraycast.com

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Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#61

Post by geocar »

mlang23 wrote: post #25
an1sotropy wrote: post #22

I had thought of APL as something from computing pre-history, with its bizarro custom keyboard, but I learned that APL and other array languages are apparently alive and well. Will subscribe to the podcast. Two quotes the hosts brought up stuck with me: (at 15:05) "A language that doesn't change the way you think is not a language worth learning". From Alan Perlis [1], and his Epigrams in Programming (#19) [2] (at 16…

The latest language which fits quote 1 for me was Haskell. Even though I already had some functional background (Lisp), it took me seemingly forever to actually grok purely functional programming. But once it clicked, it felt like stepping up on a ladder. My perspective on other languages changed as well.

I have a common-lisp background, and I learned Haskell at the insistence of a former colleague. I also know k, and have since learned some APL and j. I would like to try and suggest to you my perspective:

The jump from Python to Haskell - or really anything along that way is like talking about a ladder of computing. You start at one end, and you are climbing upwards. And every step you take, you can look down and see all of the things you knew before, but with greater perspective.

And Haskell? Well, it's definitely pretty far up the ladder. If you get Haskell, you feel like you really understand what's going on. I know pg was talking about lisp when he was thinking blub, but in some blubish respects, Haskell is a better lisp than lisp.

But see, going from Haskell (or really anything) to Iverson is like, listen: Forget the ladder, because a ladder only goes up and down. Iverson is sideways. It is in this way, like adding depth to flatland, that Arrays are an even bigger deal than you can possibly imagine until you go there.

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#62

Post by geocar »

jasode wrote: post #32
tfsh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome now provides on-device powered live captions (which hooks into any chrome originating audio) - chrome://settings/accessibility -> toggle "Live Captions"[1] which could help alleviate some of the limitations for audio impaired viewers 1: https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/10538231?hl=en

>Chrome now provides on-device powered live captions [...] which could help alleviate some of the limitations for audio impaired viewers That's a great feature! But it also highlights the limited accuracy of the AI machine learning algorithm for technical topics with jargon . E.g., at 27m00s, the caption algorithm incorrectly transcribes it as as "APL is joked about as a right only language" -- but we know the speake…

I know the joke is that APL is a write-only language, but it somehow seems more true to say it is a right-only language.

I am nonplussed about AI/ML in general but this accidental wisdom is worth meditating on even if it didn't come from a human.

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#63

Post by rklmno »

slver wrote: post #16
rscho wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the goal in bringing in a C++ programmer was to provide an outsider view, but no, no Fortran guy. I don't think Fortran is an array language in that arrays are not the only datastructures in Fortran, though?

Is an array language a language where you only have arrays? That honestly sounds a bit odd.

Mostly yes.

Numbers (and character) are implemented as arrays with 0 dimensions. Text would be an array of characters with 1 dimension (the number of characters), and generally speaking the dimension of an array is a one dimensional list of non-negative integers. Many array languages also include an array type which is approximately the same as a C pointer to an array, with a bit of jargon thrown in to distinguish a reference to an array from the array itself.

Something like an SQL table in an array language would be implemented as a list of columns (rather than as a list of rows) and a corresponding list of column labels. This has some interesting benefits.

That said, functions in array language are typically not arrays (though they presumably would have a textual representation). So... not everything is an array.

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#64

Post by rscho »

klibertp wrote: post #33
slver wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems almost as if it'd be more useful to not explicitly expose operators as applicable to arrays, but implement SIMD optimization for operator expressions in .map(function) and something like .binaryMap(right, function) ex. [1, 2, 3].binaryMap([10, 10, 10], (a, b) => a * b) // Produces [10, 20, 30] This would be easier to optimize when compiled because the expressions can be simplified and mapped to the right SIM…

Unfortunately, I have no idea about the implementation and what optimizations are done in J or APL for which operations :( I know that there are hardcoded "fast path" expressions (particular combinations of operations) which have much better performance than more general expressions doing the same thing, so it might be that the optimization happens at that level. OTOH, your example is very verbose when compared to J'…

even less verbose:

(>: i. 3 3) * 10

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#65

Post by Bostonian »

Banana699 wrote: post #18
rscho wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the goal in bringing in a C++ programmer was to provide an outsider view, but no, no Fortran guy. I don't think Fortran is an array language in that arrays are not the only datastructures in Fortran, though?

Fortran isn't an array language at all, really. Maybe some features of the array languages style are super-imposed atop it with parallizing extensions, dialects, or whatnot; but it's style has always been and still is to write explicit loops and mutate state left and right. John Backus in his famous 1977 turing award speech explicitly named it a representative of the "fat weak" languages he talked of and said it was…

Fortran has had built-in array operations since the Fortran 90 standard. If X and Y are scalars or arrays of the same shape, you can X+Y, X*Y, exp(X), sin(X) etc. You can define your own elemental functions that act on both scalars and arrays of any rank. I still write loops when programming in Fortran 95 but less often than in Fortran 77. So I think modern Fortran is an array language.

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#66

Post by mamcx »

mlang23 wrote: post #25
an1sotropy wrote: post #22

I had thought of APL as something from computing pre-history, with its bizarro custom keyboard, but I learned that APL and other array languages are apparently alive and well. Will subscribe to the podcast. Two quotes the hosts brought up stuck with me: (at 15:05) "A language that doesn't change the way you think is not a language worth learning". From Alan Perlis [1], and his Epigrams in Programming (#19) [2] (at 16…

The latest language which fits quote 1 for me was Haskell. Even though I already had some functional background (Lisp), it took me seemingly forever to actually grok purely functional programming. But once it clicked, it felt like stepping up on a ladder. My perspective on other languages changed as well.

For my was Rust. I done like 12(?) Langs before, including F# that also was a change of mind, but the first 2 or 3 months of Rust I fell like an idiot looking intensely to a wall. I start to think my 20 years programming were a big fat lie.

I can't believe why it feels so hard? !I already know pascal and obj-c and F#!, kind of similar, no?

Now I feel rust so easy (as python easy!) that is weeeeeeird. (btw: I think is months now where I never think I have meet an error or situation that truly confuse me).

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#67

Post by leephillips »

geocar wrote: post #58
jiggawatts wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the actual f? It's like someone threw up the noise that modems make during initial connection onto an electric typewriter from the 1960s, and then explained their intention using quotes from a Lovecraft novel.

I am going to tell you something fantastic, but first, I want to explain some things about this: us:{$[#i:&{(y~*K)&"*"~*x}':x;@[x;i;:[;,"_"]];x]} The first is that there's a typo in what bidirectional wrote. The above is correct. The second, is what it is. Once I have explained that, I can tell you the fantastic thing. k syntax is very simple. There's just a few forms you need to be aware of: f x which applies x to f…

Is the open source version (Kona) any good? Or do we have to go proprietary to try this out?

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#68

Post by slver »

klibertp wrote: post #59
slver wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I can't understand is what would J do if I tell it to sum these two arrays: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I.e. 5 elements and 3 elements

1 2 3 + 4 5 6 7 |length error | 1 2 3 +4 5 6 7 In general - depends on the operation. Sometimes the verb checks that both operands have the same rank and dimensions, sometimes the shorter/smaller side gets applied column-wise (or cell-wise/page-wise): (2 2 $ 1 2 3 4) NB. $ means "reshape" 1 2 3 4 (2 2 $ 1 2 3 4) + 1 2 2 3 5 6 Sometimes the shorter side is repeated as much as needed to get the correct length, and some…

Gotta say, "depends on the operation" was the most unfortunate possible answer to my question, alas :-) Maybe one day we'll figure out how to make a consistent array language ;-)

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#69

Post by specialist »

geocar wrote: post #58
jiggawatts wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the actual f? It's like someone threw up the noise that modems make during initial connection onto an electric typewriter from the 1960s, and then explained their intention using quotes from a Lovecraft novel.

I am going to tell you something fantastic, but first, I want to explain some things about this: us:{$[#i:&{(y~*K)&"*"~*x}':x;@[x;i;:[;,"_"]];x]} The first is that there's a typo in what bidirectional wrote. The above is correct. The second, is what it is. Once I have explained that, I can tell you the fantastic thing. k syntax is very simple. There's just a few forms you need to be aware of: f x which applies x to f…

Wow. That's some explanation. Thanks.

Do you use "rainbow brackets"?

This example is first hit I found: https://kristofferc.github.io/OhMyREPL.jl/latest/features/ra...

Such an obvious idea once you see it. Wish I had syntax coloring and rainbow brackets when I coded LISP for hire.

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#70

Post by abnercoimbre »

anchpop wrote: post #50
jasode wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fyi if you weren't aware ... most podcasts don't have text of the audio because high-quality (accurate) transcription of podcasts costs money . Example rates: https://www.google.com/search?q=podcast+transcription+servic... So this thread's podcast of 52 minutes of a complex technical topic with multiple speakers could cost ~$200. A programming-related podcast is already a niche topic with a tiny audience and an Array…

I make transcripts of all my work using Descript. It uses Google's speech-to-text algo (same as the one in youtube presumably) and gives you a transcript you can then edit. It costs $15/month I believe, and you have to spend some time editing the transcript that realistically won't be read by many, but it works pretty well ime (no affiliation besides being a happy customer)

Right. A high-quality podcast is already lots of pre- and post-production work on just the audio. I use Rev which hires captioners on my behalf [0] but it's also expensive. I use it sparingly.

[0] https://www.rev.com/

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