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The Matrix Space Beta

matrix.org

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Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#61

Post by ldarby »

Arathorn wrote: post #10

For what it’s worth, the thing I find most exciting about Spaces is that they provide a decentralised hierarchical namespace with decentralised access controls for every room (ie pubsub topic) in Matrix. So it’s like we’ve sprouted an openly federated global hierarchical filing system for freeform realtime data streams of all flavours - where people can go crazy defining their own trees, applying their own curation i…

I wish Matrix would instead focus on fixing all the existing encryption usability issues instead of these new features:

https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=label%3AA-...

I would love to migrate my family to Element (and also friends, and eventually also recommend it to employers if they're ever choosing something other than Teams) but can't until it's reliable as webmail. I also wrote this comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25271512 "Once Element is mature enough (and I'm sorry, but looking at the incoming issues on https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=sort%3Aupd..., it doesn't look like it yet), then hopefully more companies will start considering it."

I get that E2E means it cannot be as simple as email, and I can handle the extra training that's needed, but not for figuring out all these known issues and attempting to prevent people hitting them, or having to handle the situation if they do.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#62

Post by anticensor »

ldarby wrote: post #61
Arathorn wrote: post #10

For what it’s worth, the thing I find most exciting about Spaces is that they provide a decentralised hierarchical namespace with decentralised access controls for every room (ie pubsub topic) in Matrix. So it’s like we’ve sprouted an openly federated global hierarchical filing system for freeform realtime data streams of all flavours - where people can go crazy defining their own trees, applying their own curation i…

I wish Matrix would instead focus on fixing all the existing encryption usability issues instead of these new features: https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=label%3AA-... I would love to migrate my family to Element (and also friends, and eventually also recommend it to employers if they're ever choosing something other than Teams) but can't until it's reliable as webmail. I also wrote this comment: http…

E2EE is opt-in per-room.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#63

Post by Arathorn »

haolez wrote: post #39

Anyone here using the Matrix ecosystem instead of Teams for a more "enterprisey" company?

At Element we have a bunch of customers doing so, but the one I can speak to most accurately is Element itself, as a company. Our internal space view looks like this, for instance: https://matrix-client.matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/m.... As you can see, it's pretty enterprisey - we even have HR rooms ;P

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#64

Post by ldarby »

anticensor wrote: post #62
ldarby wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish Matrix would instead focus on fixing all the existing encryption usability issues instead of these new features: https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=label%3AA-... I would love to migrate my family to Element (and also friends, and eventually also recommend it to employers if they're ever choosing something other than Teams) but can't until it's reliable as webmail. I also wrote this comment: http…

E2EE is opt-in per-room.

The entire point of Matrix is that it has E2E. If E2E isn't a requirement then my prefered communication tool is email.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#65

Post by viccuad »

ldarby wrote: post #61
Arathorn wrote: post #10

For what it’s worth, the thing I find most exciting about Spaces is that they provide a decentralised hierarchical namespace with decentralised access controls for every room (ie pubsub topic) in Matrix. So it’s like we’ve sprouted an openly federated global hierarchical filing system for freeform realtime data streams of all flavours - where people can go crazy defining their own trees, applying their own curation i…

I wish Matrix would instead focus on fixing all the existing encryption usability issues instead of these new features: https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=label%3AA-... I would love to migrate my family to Element (and also friends, and eventually also recommend it to employers if they're ever choosing something other than Teams) but can't until it's reliable as webmail. I also wrote this comment: http…

Enabling by default:

- cross-signing (so users verify their own devices themselves, and you verify users only once by verifying their public key, regardless of how many times they add or update devices)

- and key backup (so moving between devices doesn't need manual polling for other devices' keys the first time for decrypting messages)

would be a great step forward. Those are there, but they are disabled by default yet, which is a disservice.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#66

Post by anticensor »

ripdog wrote: post #14
Arathorn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

voice/video rooms are planned for June.

Great to hear! I'd love to be able to recommend Matrix/Element as a Discord alternative. However, actually competing with Discord will require a tonne of hard work in Element. The little things like automatic voice activation, echo cancellation and volume normalization are the reasons Discord are as fantastic as it is, so Element will need to be excellent with those to compete.

> automatic voice activation

Voice activation is a client side thing.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#67

Post by ripdog »

anticensor wrote: post #66
ripdog wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great to hear! I'd love to be able to recommend Matrix/Element as a Discord alternative. However, actually competing with Discord will require a tonne of hard work in Element. The little things like automatic voice activation, echo cancellation and volume normalization are the reasons Discord are as fantastic as it is, so Element will need to be excellent with those to compete.

> automatic voice activation Voice activation is a client side thing.

Yes, and Arathorn works on element, does he not?

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#68

Post by anticensor »

Arathorn wrote: post #63
haolez wrote: post #39

Anyone here using the Matrix ecosystem instead of Teams for a more "enterprisey" company?

At Element we have a bunch of customers doing so, but the one I can speak to most accurately is Element itself, as a company. Our internal space view looks like this, for instance: https://matrix-client.matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/m... . As you can see, it's pretty enterprisey - we even have HR rooms ;P

You have forgot sanitising the screenshot before sharing with us.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#69

Post by anticensor »

Arathorn wrote: post #53
Arathorn wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the decentralised ACL implementation (state resolution) relies on power levels as a simple comparator for determining merge conflict resolution. State resolution is the academically novel bit of Matrix and hard to get right, and while we can swap it out for role based ACLs in future, this is orthogonal to Spaces. Meanwhile it honestly hasn’t come up as a requirement, even from enterprisey folks, given we push…

I should also add that there are at least two matrix spec change proposals flying around to add role based ACLs, and one of the main reasons for switching spaces to be built on rooms is that they will automatically inherit the ACL model when it lands :)

And neither of those two proposals have figured out how to solve the mess of the conflict resolution.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#70

Post by StavrosK »

Arathorn wrote: post #49
xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power levels feels like the most IRC answer possible, and breaks down as soon you want mutually exclusive abilities. Why is this the preferred model?

Because the decentralised ACL implementation (state resolution) relies on power levels as a simple comparator for determining merge conflict resolution. State resolution is the academically novel bit of Matrix and hard to get right, and while we can swap it out for role based ACLs in future, this is orthogonal to Spaces. Meanwhile it honestly hasn’t come up as a requirement, even from enterprisey folks, given we push…

Great response, thanks!
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