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The Awful German Language (1880)

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61–70 of 258 posts

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#61
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at an eggplant in its early stages, you will understand the name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v9hvK3rdxA So nope, not "an" eggplant, some eggplants, and those only may look like eggs in their early stages. They may also look like plums. Do we call the purple eggplants plumplants because they resemble plums at some indeterminate stage in their growth?

..do you not?

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#62

English pronunciation only vaguely follows word spelling and must be memorized in many cases. The classic phrase: "A rough-coated, dough-faced, thoughtful ploughman strode through the streets of Scarborough; after falling into a slough, he coughed and hiccoughed." shows how the "-ough" has no reasonable rule that can be used to determine word pronunciation, despite similar spelling. By comparison, spelling and word p…

The thing is, there are rules and explanations for everything, but they are not the kind of rules that would help a foreigner learn the language. They are the rules of languages and orthography being transformed as a result of waves of invasions, with each invader bringing their own language and changing the pronounciation of some of the native words, to be replaced by another invader doing the same.

This is not unique to English, but I do think that English is more eclectic than most other languages.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#63
post #52

Unsurprisingly, there are many articles published about "The Awful English Language" , such as: [1], [2], [3] Some examples from [2]: Let's face it -- English is a crazy language. Besides the above, there is no egg in eggplant, nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English muffins weren't invented in England or French fries in France. Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet,…

and books, e.g. "Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue"

McWhorter's an amazing author. Highly recommend getting any of his audiobooks.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#64

> Every noun has a gender, and there is no sense or system in distribution; so the gender of each must be learned separately and by heart. There is no other way. To do this one has to have a memory like a memorandum-book. And yet, every German speaker seems to be able to remember this, without evidence of them being better at memorization than others? As usual, it's easy to forget how hard things are for others when…

> I'm sure Twain never thought about how ridiculously hard many English words are to spell

I'm sure Twain was well aware of it, and wrote the article on the awful German language tongue in cheek for amusement, rather than as an actual complaint.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#65

Unsurprisingly, there are many articles published about "The Awful English Language" , such as: [1], [2], [3] Some examples from [2]: Let's face it -- English is a crazy language. Besides the above, there is no egg in eggplant, nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English muffins weren't invented in England or French fries in France. Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet,…

I have to admit still being confused about sweetmeats. If a Brit uses the word, are they talking about a specific type of candy, made in a specific way, from a specific type of shop? Does it need to be baked? Or have flour? Or does a Snickers bar count as a sweetmeat? Or a gumdrop? Hard candy? Or is it more like something from a bakery? Indian sweetmeats also seems to be a thing (from an image search right now). What's the difference, if any? Is any of this related to Turkish Delights?

I don't understand the connotation of the word, as much as the meaning of it.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#66
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So right, if he knew more he could give better examples ('das Weib', a nowadays pejorative term for woman (related to 'wife' presumably) doesn't have that diminutive structure and is still neutral), but his point still stands? This feels like Gettier problem territory. :P > diminutives are always neuter I assume you mean to only talk about "-chen"-suffixed diminutives right? [ there are other kinds of diminutive cons…

> I assume you mean to only talk about "-chen"-suffixed diminutives right? [ there are other kinds of diminutive construction in German that aren't neutral - e.g. -ling , Zögling, takes masculine ] Which is even more fun as -ling is generally seen as more objectifying than -chen, even though -chen is neutral and -ling is male.

Also -ling is not so much a diminutive but more of a suffix for Nominalisation (Zögling stems from 'ziehen' [to raise],and refers to someone who was raised, Widerling from 'widerlich' [despicable], thus a despicable person, Schreiberling from 'schreiben' [to write], a Writer], Frühling from 'früh' early [spring]). Gives a somewhat pejorative connotation at times.

The key misunderstanding here is of course that 'Genus' is not necessarily 'Sexus'.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#67
post #2

One of the Twain's famous examples that language is full of exceptions and hard to learn is that the word for girl is neuter. However, that shows that he didn't understand things all that well. Or the message was more important than the facts. While in general gender does indeed not follow much logic and needs to be learned by heart it's not true for this class of words. For derived words the gender is determined by…

I think your argument is somewhat invalidated by your last sentence: the world for girl is generally seen as a standalone word, and so it seems odd. Of course there is reason why is it so, but that is true for all oddities in every language: they made sense originally but as the new thing became the norm the origin of it is lost.

I am not sure that it is seen as standalone. Surely, one doesn't use "Maid" or other archaic terms from which "Mädchen" is the derived word. But to me I am aware that its a diminutive. If I speak dialect I also use the dialectal diminutive (Mädle). Of course to someone learning the language that level of understanding is hard to reach without immersion for years.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#68
post #32
post #2

One of the Twain's famous examples that language is full of exceptions and hard to learn is that the word for girl is neuter. However, that shows that he didn't understand things all that well. Or the message was more important than the facts. While in general gender does indeed not follow much logic and needs to be learned by heart it's not true for this class of words. For derived words the gender is determined by…

> One of the Twain's famous examples that language is full of exceptions and hard to learn is that the word for girl is neuter. This is logical: "Mädchen" is a diminutive (as the prefix -chen shows). Diminutives are always neuter. "Mäd[g]dchen" thus simply means "little maid [Magd: maid]".

Sorry for the typo: correct is of course "Mä[g]dchen".

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#69
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is “th” the fault of Englishmen or of a German? Specifically Gutenburg and his hellish press. Before movable type English had the letter “thorn” - perhaps some of the pronunciation problems arose then? But what do I know? As a nativ spanich spikr, I rimembr bing prplexd

That doesn't make sense. Typesets are just symbols carved into metal. You can just make your own typeset for your own language and in this case all it required was one more letter so the barrier to entry is practically zero.

IIRC the movable type printing press was imported from the continent when printing in England started, and by importing that includes the typesets and staff to operate the printing presses. French printers typesetting English text were not very motivated to establish extra characters.

Random related anecdote: For years the Mormons would distribute their Book of Mormon in German translations but these were printed overseas and they didn't have the 'ß' character, so they used the greek letter β to substitute 'daβ' instead of 'daß', etc. We tend to forget living in the digital publishing age how limiting mechanical workflows can be.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#70

> Every noun has a gender, and there is no sense or system in distribution; so the gender of each must be learned separately and by heart. There is no other way. To do this one has to have a memory like a memorandum-book. And yet, every German speaker seems to be able to remember this, without evidence of them being better at memorization than others? As usual, it's easy to forget how hard things are for others when…

You can very often guess the gender of a word in german using some heuristics. For instance, anything ending in -heit is feminine, and -chen neutral. I wrote an elaborate analysis os these heuristics (if someone is into this kind of thing) https://mejuto.co/statistical-grammar-guessing-a-german-noun...
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