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Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

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Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#61

Post by andrewla »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #59
swiley wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will end up on the feed the court publishes, so it's not like it isn't public information. The police could chill out though and not make a bad situation worse.

There's a difference between the information simply being "public" and a social media account blasting out people's mugshots on Twitter.

I think, importantly, that there is no difference. Once the information is out there, it's out there. You can attempt to have a "right to be forgotten" but that's just relying on people to voluntarily comply. If I have a jpeg no force in the world can make me delete it if I want to preserve it.

Public "but only available if you go to city hall" is at least a little more restrictive until Zillow sends out people to start scanning public documents so they can build up their data.

Not public is really the best way to go; and here it sounds like the town has decided that part of the punishment for minor civil infractions is to be put in stocks in the town square, which might once have been enough to shame people into not stealing horses, but now carries a stigma that could last for your entire life.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#63

Post by itake »

dfxm12 wrote: post #34
itake wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you correct the problem of our culture treating the accused poorly? If you're arrested under false pretenses (just google search "cops planting drugs" to see countless videos), how do we prevent life-long impact of innocent people?

I suppose one step we can take is to not put so much blind faith in cops. They get arrests wrong. I do think politicians, cops and the media all have a role to play though.

"we can take is to not put so much blind faith in cops."

Unfortunately, we can't just tell everyone "stop trusting arrest reports" because that just isn't how the world works.

The problem is companies will compare 2 equal candidates, but one with an arrest record. The one without the arrest will get the job.

Do you have any other ideas?

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#64

Post by rhacker »

mLuby wrote: post #26
errantspark wrote: post #5

I wonder in the discussions surrounding these sorts of things (Right to be Forgotten, etc) if the issue isn't that there should be a right to be forgotten but rather that culturally we should be far far more tolerant of people fucking up. It feels like the perception of how much the average member of society transgresses its rules is totally out of sync with reality, though this may be by design to create space for e…

we should be far far more tolerant of people fucking up. Absolutely. And the Law is not perfect, not perfectly applied, nor unchanging. I'd say we can demonstrate our collective tolerance through efforts like the right to be forgotten and disallowing criminal record questions. It feels like the perception of how much the average member of society transgresses its rules is totally out of sync with reality. Are you tal…

Well in general there are 3 strike laws... I mean it seems reasonable that people that break rules 3 times need to be separated off from the people not doing that.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#65

Post by infogulch »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #10
errantspark wrote: post #5

I wonder in the discussions surrounding these sorts of things (Right to be Forgotten, etc) if the issue isn't that there should be a right to be forgotten but rather that culturally we should be far far more tolerant of people fucking up. It feels like the perception of how much the average member of society transgresses its rules is totally out of sync with reality, though this may be by design to create space for e…

> culturally we should The problem with that is that such a "should" doesn't change the "are", and that it's unlikely to change any time soon. So we need to acknowledge reality and try to find a fix that works within that reality.

Agree that we should aim to fix problems that have possible real-world solutions today. I think we should also consider how to fix the underlying causes of those problems. These aren't really 'either/or' but 'both', though they are clearly at different stages of the solutioning process and need different kinds and quantities of resources.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#66

Post by dfxm12 »

itake wrote: post #63
dfxm12 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose one step we can take is to not put so much blind faith in cops. They get arrests wrong. I do think politicians, cops and the media all have a role to play though.

"we can take is to not put so much blind faith in cops." Unfortunately, we can't just tell everyone "stop trusting arrest reports" because that just isn't how the world works. The problem is companies will compare 2 equal candidates, but one with an arrest record. The one without the arrest will get the job. Do you have any other ideas?

There are already laws that protect certain classes of individuals in situations like housing and employment. It's not hard to apply these laws to other classes.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#67

Post by throwaway0a5e »

aspaceman wrote: post #44
andrewla wrote: post #39

I like that the proposed bills here are not attempts to force sites to remove mug shots (which seems like a losing battle) but instead just resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over. Unless it serves a legitimate law enforcement end, either as part of a punishment for being convicted of a crime or to aid the public in the search for a fugitive, it…

My local police department posts mugshots on their Twitter, sends copies to the local newspaper, and types up a detailed report for the local radio station for _every_ _single_ _interaction_. "John Doe was pulled over by X police Saturday afternoon for a speeding violation. Jane Y was ..." And every Sunday, the local station plays these. So you know every single person who was pulled over. The vehicle they drive. Etc…

This isn't a "small town" thing. This is a "rich enough to afford a police department bigger than they need so the police can justify spending the man hours on BS" town thing. It happens in plenty of medium sized towns and small cities.

If the cops were stretched thin busting meth labs or dealing with Real Crime(TM) they wouldn't be doing that.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#68

Post by infogulch »

dfxm12 wrote: post #40
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> culturally we should The problem with that is that such a "should" doesn't change the "are", and that it's unlikely to change any time soon. So we need to acknowledge reality and try to find a fix that works within that reality.

The reality is that one is innocent until proven guilty. I'm not interested in weakening this fundamental right to accommodate people who are uncomfortable admitting the fallibility of the police or our justice system. That people think if the cops arrest you, you're no longer innocent is the way bigger issue here.

Perhaps the problem is that most people are left unexposed to the reality of ridiculous arrest charges.

A fight-fire-with-fire strategy might be that the government should aim to arrest all citizens at least once before age 25 and charge them with something ridiculous before dropping the charges. Ok after thinking about it for two seconds that may be a very stupid idea, but still...

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#69

Post by dragonwriter »

aspaceman wrote: post #44
andrewla wrote: post #39

I like that the proposed bills here are not attempts to force sites to remove mug shots (which seems like a losing battle) but instead just resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over. Unless it serves a legitimate law enforcement end, either as part of a punishment for being convicted of a crime or to aid the public in the search for a fugitive, it…

My local police department posts mugshots on their Twitter, sends copies to the local newspaper, and types up a detailed report for the local radio station for _every_ _single_ _interaction_. "John Doe was pulled over by X police Saturday afternoon for a speeding violation. Jane Y was ..." And every Sunday, the local station plays these. So you know every single person who was pulled over. The vehicle they drive. Etc…

> for _every_ _single_ _interaction_.

I bet not, and that there is considerable selectivity (both based on legal mandates and police discretion) as to which interactions are reported and which facts about them are reported. Reporting a lot, however, is a good way of creating the impression that everything is being reported.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#70

Post by dragonwriter »

swiley wrote: post #49
aspaceman wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My local police department posts mugshots on their Twitter, sends copies to the local newspaper, and types up a detailed report for the local radio station for _every_ _single_ _interaction_. "John Doe was pulled over by X police Saturday afternoon for a speeding violation. Jane Y was ..." And every Sunday, the local station plays these. So you know every single person who was pulled over. The vehicle they drive. Etc…

It will end up on the feed the court publishes, so it's not like it isn't public information. The police could chill out though and not make a bad situation worse.

> It will end up on the feed the court publishes, so it's not like it isn't public information.

Interactions that don’t result in charges will not. (That doesn’t mean some of it, at least, is not still technically public information that would be disclosable in response to a sunshine request, but there is a difference between that and publicly-advertised information.)

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