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Midair Collision over Denver

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Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#61
post #4

Private Pilot here - just thought I'd chime in quickly; Many aviation enthusiasts / pilots first go to is to have a look at the flight data - usually available on FlightAware / FlightRadar24 and a few other websites, plus LiveATC usually can provide recordings of the flights communications to towers as well. We should refrain from using just those data points to draw conclusions to the cause; the NTSB (and other orgs…

It’s not incredibly rare. Around 2 in 5 midair mishaps result in no fatalities.

https://iflyamerica.org/midairs.asp

This one was incredibly lucky, especially for the Key Lime aircraft.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#62
Wow, that's incredible. Goes to show that people do walk away from plane crashes with some regularity. My father was a pilot[0].

He sold his plane about 15 years ago (to a group of owners, one of which was a priest, I'm sure there's a joke in there). A few of winters later, he was called out to Romeo Airport; the pilot flying the plane that was formerly his had crashed the aircraft a few miles short of the runway in bad weather[1]. He was traveling with his daughter, a friend and, I think, his wife. He died, but his daughter was able to get free and make her way to a nearby farm to call for help. Looking at the plane, the fact that anyone survived at all let alone walked to a nearby house with minor injuries is pretty miraculous.

It's hard to impress upon folks who have never been in a small plane like that just how ... yeah ... how much it feels like you're hanging onto a kite. I have no idea the kinds of structural technologies are involved in the aircraft but I know his plane was made in the 70s and was light enough that he only had a pole which attached to the front landing gear to pull it out of the hangar. The weight is so critical that the 7-seat plane can realistically only seat 4-5 adults. I remember being shocked that they had to weigh the paint they applied when he had the plane re-painted.

[0] I'll spare the details as I have left many comments in the past about his experiences.

[1] https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/43894 - "Pilot Error"; I recall my Dad saying "all plane crashes are pilot error"

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-32_Cherokee_Six

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#63
post #25

It's strange that the planes were supposed to be flying parallel and yet the damage to both planes in the photos suggests a collision at right angles Remarkable that the Metroliner held together, despite that terrible damage, and they landed it safely edit: interesting photo of the landing from the Reddit thread linked elsewhere https://imgur.com/gallery/yKPOWR0

The Cirrus overshot the centerline of the runway it was supposed to land on. The common way for these situations is for the plane to be on an intercept angle towards the centerline. That's a max 30 degree angle for an instrument approach, but this was a visual approach so it could have been a sharper angle. All it takes to make this mistake in a Cirrus (and other G1000 avionics type small airplanes) is to forget 1 bu…

If the 1 button on autopilot mode is the red autopilot disconnect, “time to hand-fly” button, I agree with you.

This turn to final (with the unusual additional warning to “do not fly through final”) is a visual maneuver and I’d expect most every pilot to be hand-flying at that point. (My autopilot and navigator is capable to make that intercept, but it’s way more tedious and distracting to program it than to just fly it.)

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#64
Glad no one was injured or killed. Sounds like the Metroliner pilot did very well.

I really think that we should not have flying cars until we have true autopilot (hands off the wheel, meatbag!). The thought of the "Hey y'all! Lookit this!" knuckleheads that regularly open up, roaring past my house, in three dimensions, is chilling. They are bad enough with just two.

I'll bet that the advent of true driverless tech will also be the advent of illegal aftermarket "mod kits." I can see it now...the "Hold My Beer™" line of manual override modules...

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#65
post #28
post #2

ATC comms with visualization: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5tb2dVWJqc

The pilot is speaking about failed engine after the collision, like it is nothing. Fascinating. I'd be shouting something obscene in such a situation. For half an hour at least, I think.

He might not have been aware of the full extent of the damage. He is on final; the plane is flying; he's lost an engine; he's going to land it. There is no time for anything else.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#66
post #7

Just in case anyone (like me) is thinking - wait did that aeroplane have a parachute? From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Airframe_Parachute_Sy... The Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) is a whole-plane ballistic parachute recovery system designed specifically for Cirrus Aircraft's line of general aviation light aircraft including the SR20, SR22 and SF50. The design became the first of its kind to becom…

What are the problems with making such a system for large passenger aircraft (perhaps with multiple parachutes)?

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#67
post #66
post #7

Just in case anyone (like me) is thinking - wait did that aeroplane have a parachute? From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Airframe_Parachute_Sy... The Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) is a whole-plane ballistic parachute recovery system designed specifically for Cirrus Aircraft's line of general aviation light aircraft including the SR20, SR22 and SF50. The design became the first of its kind to becom…

What are the problems with making such a system for large passenger aircraft (perhaps with multiple parachutes)?

The drastically higher speeds involved (250-300 knots airspeed, as opposed to more like 50-90 knots for GA aircraft), combined with drastically higher weights (think about the chutes needed for something like Apollo, which is nowhere near the size of a large passenger aircraft, and realize you need way more) would both be major issues. There’s also the simple fact that larger passenger aircraft tend not to fail this way, making it less likely such a system would help even if it existed.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#68
post #7

Just in case anyone (like me) is thinking - wait did that aeroplane have a parachute? From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Airframe_Parachute_Sy... The Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) is a whole-plane ballistic parachute recovery system designed specifically for Cirrus Aircraft's line of general aviation light aircraft including the SR20, SR22 and SF50. The design became the first of its kind to becom…

Ah, that’s why I only read about one parachute for two passengers :D

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#69
post #66
post #7

Just in case anyone (like me) is thinking - wait did that aeroplane have a parachute? From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Airframe_Parachute_Sy... The Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) is a whole-plane ballistic parachute recovery system designed specifically for Cirrus Aircraft's line of general aviation light aircraft including the SR20, SR22 and SF50. The design became the first of its kind to becom…

What are the problems with making such a system for large passenger aircraft (perhaps with multiple parachutes)?

I would expect the problem to be "mass goes up with size cubed, while parachute drag only goes up with size squared". I.e. you need a disproportionately larger chute (or more of them) for large aircraft. Those are dead weight in normal operation, which really hurts the economics.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#70
post #66
post #7

Just in case anyone (like me) is thinking - wait did that aeroplane have a parachute? From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Airframe_Parachute_Sy... The Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) is a whole-plane ballistic parachute recovery system designed specifically for Cirrus Aircraft's line of general aviation light aircraft including the SR20, SR22 and SF50. The design became the first of its kind to becom…

What are the problems with making such a system for large passenger aircraft (perhaps with multiple parachutes)?

The sibling comments make some of the same arguments, but here’s an article which also addresses it:

"An aircraft is most vulnerable during take-off and landing because it is closer to the ground (its biggest obstacle), and is travelling at low speeds and therefore is harder to manoeuvre. According to statistics from Boeing, almost three-quarters of deaths from plane crashes between 2005 and 2014 occurred during these phases of flight. But this is the time when a detachable cabin would least likely be successful at saving lives. Being closer to the ground would give the pilot much less opportunity to jettison the cabin following an incident and if it were detached it could well land in a built-up area."

https://theconversation.com/why-a-detachable-cabin-probably-...

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