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Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

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Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#61
post #55
post #19

What he's saying is true, but also i think the app-store type approach that apt-get provides is a major benefit. With windows i have to find some random program, hope its not malware, possibly pay for it, etc. With linux, i have reasonable assurance that packages (from main repos) aren't evil, they are free (as in beer), and i can easily search through and find something for my usecase. I can't really do that in wind…

Having a system-wide package manager where nearly all libraries are dynamically linked also has its drawbacks. A seemingly minor update might cause a huge cascade of dependency updates which causes common Linux distributions to tend to one of these two extreme solutions: Either fix all packages in place and freeze their version numbers or just "give up" and update everything all the time. Both solutions feel like com…

> On Android/iOS/macOS/Windows, I can have the latest 3rd party software without having to deal with intrusive updates to the OS infrastructure all the time.

That's not really true. The .NET runtime isn't redistributable, and so has to be installed on the host OS, which usually works but not always (and pre-Windows 10, newer versions of .NET required a bunch of KBs, which meant that Windows Update was actually working and able to install those, which fairly frequently broke on Windows 7 due to the lack of Service Packs). Nowadays this is less of a problem, due to improved .NET compatibility and .NET 4.x coming pre-installed on Windows 10. Which honestly is great - you can compile and run .NET 4.x programs on any Windows 10 machine. Granted, it's some relatively outdated version by now, but it is still very nice to have a "proper" programming language out of the box, and also the ability to compile to small .exe's.

Similarly, MSVC runtimes (except the installers are redistributable, but you are still in the situation of "have to globally install it").

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#62
post #13

Worth watching. But if you don’t... [Linux desktop sucks because application writers don’t make binaries that “just work”, pushing the user to always just have to recompile for their system, they try and address this in the kernel by not breaking things, but the distributions to and screw it all up, because breaking is fine so long as it’s “improving”] Tons of contrary points I’m sure, but duh. It’s really nice to be…

> Windows 3.1 code on a Windows Server 2019 Can you? I was under the impression 64bit windows dropped support for 16bit windows.

Good point. IDK, it was figurative, and I may have gone back too far.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#63
It sounds like he's saying Linux desktop DEVELOPMENT sucks, not that using Linux desktop sucks.

I've been running (mostly ubuntu based) Linux since 2014. The only major problems I've had have been driver issues, userspace applications have largely worked out of the box. Maybe the devs behind everything I use are doing an exceptional job, but I've never noticed an update break a common application due to library changes.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#64
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a system-wide package manager where nearly all libraries are dynamically linked also has its drawbacks. A seemingly minor update might cause a huge cascade of dependency updates which causes common Linux distributions to tend to one of these two extreme solutions: Either fix all packages in place and freeze their version numbers or just "give up" and update everything all the time. Both solutions feel like com…

> On Android/iOS/macOS/Windows, I can have the latest 3rd party software without having to deal with intrusive updates to the OS infrastructure all the time. That's not really true. The .NET runtime isn't redistributable, and so has to be installed on the host OS, which usually works but not always (and pre-Windows 10, newer versions of .NET required a bunch of KBs, which meant that Windows Update was actually workin…

In what way is the runtime not redistributable?

The old one “.NET Framework” is an OS component but has enough compat that you can always upgrade it.

The newer one (net5+) is typically fully bundled with each app so no sharing.

MSVC also went this way - you bundle them rather than take a dependency on a system wide runtime. These two (.NET and c++ runtimes) were basically the last shared libs on windows, and it’s now basically obsolete tech (.NET 4.X) or no-longer-recommended deployment method (Msvc).

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#65

While I think a lot of the complaints he raises here are still relevant 7 years later, it's interesting that both MacOS and Windows have trended more towards a package management system with their respective app stores--with MacOS especially discouraging downloading or running any apps from outside that ecosystem. Since one can reasonably expect to target "Windows" or "MacOS" the packages in these app stores can be m…

Agree. And want to add one point which people seem to ignore in discussion like this.

>> needing a newer version of a package because the older one flat out doesn't work for me

The reverse situation is also a problem. For me personally, even a bigger problem.

Imagine, you're happy with a supported Ubuntu LTS version and don't want to upgrade to a non-LTS version. If there's a new version of this one package you would really like to use that targets a newer version of Ubuntu, you're out of luck, basically.

For example, maybe KDevelop replaced its home-grown C++ parsing engine with libclang. It's a huge change, you'd really like to give it a shot. Well, the only option is to upgrade to a newer version of Ubuntu.

Yes, there may be a PPA that has the new KDevelop targeting your LTS version. But there's an equal chance such a PPA doesn't exist. Or it has pretty much the whole set of KDE libs as its dependencies; those will not only pollute your system but also can mess up your KDE installation. Also an anonymous person made the PPA and you decide to trust them at your own risk. And when you're finally ready to upgrade, you'll have to re-add PPAs manually. Etc, etc, etc.

Snap solves both problems rather well. And in contrast to flatpak, there're official builds of VSCode and JetBrainds IDEs in the snap store. Maybe other software too -- didn't really look it up.

One problem with snap is forced updates, of course. Ubuntu developers really need to add an option to disable them.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#66
TLDR;

Linux distribution landscape is diverse (complex) and emphasis is on shipping source code and not something (binary) that real people use. For example something is broken so do you tell grandma to download source code and compile it or do you give her a compiled binary that fixes the problem in one click?

tldr; tldr; Not simple (more than few).

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#67
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like Flatpak or Snap try to solve this problems. Do you think they don't succeed?

Has Linus any opinion on flatpak, snap or appimage?

Linus Torvalds uses AppImage for his diving app subsurface. He is on the record saying he endorses it, and you can find a quote by him on the AppImage website. I don’t think he would have anything good to say about snap. I don’t think he has said anything about flatpak

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#68
Linus is right about being angry when binaries break. I remember google music actually provided a linux upload client... in a later fedora release, it broke. ISTR a library it depended on broke it in some way in the newer version. The issue is there's no Linus in library land and there couldn't be anyway.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#69
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree. This is one of the things that makes Windows feel like a second-tier OS to me compared with Linux and Mac. If I have to do something "tech-y", on Linux or Mac, I look for it in the package registry. I trust that action would probably have been taken by the community if it were doing something malicious, and usually I can find the project on github and peruse the source if I really want. By contrast o…

Right, because sourcing a ruby file to install homebrew on macOS is what “real” operating systems should do.

If curl |sh was good enough for my father, then it's good enough for me ;)

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#70
post #60
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange, because I can do it, https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/windows https://chocolatey.org/

The fact that people just listed 4 competing tools shows exactly why this is a problem: 2 of them are essentially community run, and could theoretically at any time be taken over by a hostile (or even just an incompetant) entity and be used to distribute malware. Not that this couldn't happen through an official channel, but it's certainly far less likely. Since the software distribution is not even, I currently have…

>The fact that people just listed 4 competing tools shows exactly why this is a problem

yum, apt, snap, flatpack, probably more?

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