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Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#61

Post by ObserverNeutral »

These companies quite literally saved the world as we know it.

If I was the CEO or the President of those companies I'd close shop and go start a cryptocurrency instead

You are sending the message that if the problem is too important, then you should not work on it because as soon as you find a solution you'd be held at gunpoint to make it availible for free.

There will be a huge slowdown in Selfdriving cars tech as well. If Waymo or Amazon come up with the tech , then you'd see people screaming :

"40,000 deaths per year! Young children, pregnant mothers!!! Release the IP, now!!"

And of course government would follow the mob and force them to do so.

Again, off they go to start a cryptocurrency or in the internet advertising business.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#62

Post by janekm »

The biggest hurdle to getting more vaccine manufacturing capacity online is probably the hysteria around "China might steal our vaccine technology!!!!". There is no other country with the experience of rapidly scaling up manufacturing supply chains. But in the case of these vaccines, especially the mRNA ones, very hard to do without exact specifications of the microfluidics and process parameters needed.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#63

Post by janekm »

maxerickson wrote: post #55
KirillPanov wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love it if somebody would post a more detailed explanation of the mRNA vaccine manufacturing process here on HN. The news media keeps mumbling vague terms like "ingredients", and it's frustrating. Conventional vaccine production is a highly biological process... chicken eggs being used to make the flu vaccines and so forth. I was under the impression that the mRNA vaccines are chemically much simpler -- just…

They brew them. A DNA sequence that encodes the intended mRNA strand is embedded into a bacterial plasmid. Bacteria take in that plasmid and reproduce, making a bunch of plasmids with the mRNA encoding DNA embedded in them. The bacteria are killed and broken open and the plasmids are purified. The DNA sequence is then cut out of the plasmids and transcribed into mRNA. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/p…

That's the easy part (literally possible in a home laboratory: https://youtu.be/2hf9yN-oBV4), the encapsulant and microfluidics for getting the mRNA into it seems to be the hard part.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#64

Post by zo1 »

Tarsul wrote: post #57
makomk wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and if Trump was still in power I have zero doubt the media would call him out on what a cynical stunt this is - but Biden is in charge now, and that makes a huge difference to how they report on everything.

Well, Trumps actions would have been self-serving and cynical (as they all were). Biden hasn't shown those 'qualities'. Which is why I (and the WHO) give him the benefit of the doubt in this case.

But somehow some random "throwaway" account on a forum has more info than all of Biden's advisers? "Benefit of the doubt" is just a cover. We must assume competence and intent on the administration's part and hold them accountable for it (or give them credit), otherwise we're letting our bias/favoritism show through.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#65

Post by maxerickson »

janekm wrote: post #63
maxerickson wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They brew them. A DNA sequence that encodes the intended mRNA strand is embedded into a bacterial plasmid. Bacteria take in that plasmid and reproduce, making a bunch of plasmids with the mRNA encoding DNA embedded in them. The bacteria are killed and broken open and the plasmids are purified. The DNA sequence is then cut out of the plasmids and transcribed into mRNA. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/p…

That's the easy part (literally possible in a home laboratory: https://youtu.be/2hf9yN-oBV4 ), the encapsulant and microfluidics for getting the mRNA into it seems to be the hard part.

literally possible in a home laboratory

Getting sufficient production of the target isn't easy. The guy at your link includes 'countless failures' in his intro!

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#66

Post by janekm »

beckman466 wrote: post #46
tobessebot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They rightly fear that in 2-3 years, when the pandemic is likely over everywhere and other people have figured out how to commercialize the IP, they won't be the only ones producing their vaccines. This isn't going to help India or anyone in the short term and there'll be more than enough doses for every person on Earth by next year. Why should they not retain the IP rights to make a profit on new generations that ne…

> This isn't going to help India or anyone in the short term Why not? I’m not hearing a clear argument or evidence to support that withholding the patent recipe wouldn’t save millions of lives? India now has a very high number of cases. As it stands now, your argument just sounds to me like: “yes human lives, but... profit“. Please could you elaborate on your argument and/or provide examples of what you’re describing…

Simple, the Indian vaccine factories already have licenses to produce these vaccines but are struggling to scale up production: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-55571793 (in part because they can't get some of the supplies needed, which maybe could be helped if the patents for those are also waived and other factories can help to make those...)

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#67

Post by caymanjim »

Are patents really the barrier here? Are there factories out there, in countries that aren't currently producing vaccine, and are unable to purchase it? I seriously doubt it. Making these vaccines is not trivial. The facilities required can't be whipped up overnight. The skilled staff can't be pulled out of thin air.

Most countries capable of producing vaccines like this are already doing so, as fast as possible, and exporting them to the rest of the world at an incredible rate. Sure, more and faster would be better. Sure, countries are prioritizing their own citizens. But giving away all the IP is not going to change much at all.

By the time the few other countries who are even capable of manufacturing vaccines are able to bring production online, there's likely to already be a glut of extra doses on the market. The US has vaccinated nearly half of adults. Most of those remaining are voluntarily avoiding it. Vaccine shortage isn't a problem in the US at this point. US manufacturers are still increasing output, and soon there will be tens of millions of doses being exported every month, far more than any currently-nonexistent manufacturing facility could hope to produce within the next year.

Two of the worst-off countries that could most-benefit from more vaccine are India and Brazil. India has the means, doesn't really care about IP much in the first place, and already has facilities licensed to produce, but completely failed to plan. They can solve this problem if they get their shit together; the IP isn't a barrier whatsoever. Brazil has an even bigger failure of leadership and failure of public will, and already isn't taking advantage of vaccine that they have, so again, IP isn't the problem.

The simple truth is that anyone who can make these vaccines already is. Look what happened at the Emergent plant in Maryland when they tried to make the J&J vaccine. Even in the US, with good existing facilities and--at least on paper--qualified staff, production was a failure, and many months later, it still isn't producing any vaccine.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#68

Post by hrasyid »

KirillPanov wrote: post #40
baybal2 wrote: post #28

Indian pharmacies already disregard medication patents without anybody's permission. Vaccine manufacturing is just a way more involved process than anything what an average organic synthesis shop can handle. Dealing with antibodies, proteins, plasmids, or RNA requires real factories rather than garage labs. What one need is a complete process transfer : instructions on setting up every process, along with supplies ne…

I would love it if somebody would post a more detailed explanation of the mRNA vaccine manufacturing process here on HN. The news media keeps mumbling vague terms like "ingredients", and it's frustrating. Conventional vaccine production is a highly biological process... chicken eggs being used to make the flu vaccines and so forth. I was under the impression that the mRNA vaccines are chemically much simpler -- just…

Here's an article about the manufacturing process and its challenges: https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/02/06/...

The Economist isn't a technical publication but it is known to do its homework and get details like this right.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#69

Post by true_religion »

zo1 wrote: post #64
Tarsul wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Trumps actions would have been self-serving and cynical (as they all were). Biden hasn't shown those 'qualities'. Which is why I (and the WHO) give him the benefit of the doubt in this case.

But somehow some random "throwaway" account on a forum has more info than all of Biden's advisers? "Benefit of the doubt" is just a cover. We must assume competence and intent on the administration's part and hold them accountable for it (or give them credit), otherwise we're letting our bias/favoritism show through.

Let's be fair. We all gave Trump the benefit of the doubt. It was only after years of broken promises, and angry outbursts that some people turned against him by default.

Give Biden at least 1 year, and you'll see that some people are reflexively critical of him too.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#70

Post by refurb »

beckman466 wrote: post #41
refurb wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the NIH helped with the spike protein sequence. There are plenty of other parents needed to make the actual vaccine.

If you are knowledgeable on this, please could you write a short list of the total amount of patents the vaccine currently consists of, or link to a good source?

That’s not easy information to get. Startups pay a lot of money to do a “freedom to operate” study to see what patents are out there and who owns what. You can pay companies for high level info, but it’s not easy at all.
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