Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border • Hacker News Board

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#61

Post by markstos » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:07 PM UTC

My family farm got a new neighbor, who noticed that he technically owns a sliver of land with the first 100 feet of our gravel driveway, nevermind that we've been using it for the past 50 years since our property was purchased. I don't think anyone had noticed before, as this goes way back before GIS systems and satellite photos of property boundaries. For decades there's been a fence in the logical place between the driveway and the neighboring property.

The legal system would probably side with us, but it's a pain.

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#62

Post by ddnb » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:07 PM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #45

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aaah I was going to post that :D! It stars one of my favorite comedic actors, Benoît Poelvoorde who is belgian. I'd encourage anyone with a taste for foreign films to check out "C'est arrivé près de chez vous" (Man Bites Dog in english) another great movie of his (features lots of violence and serious themes, not a family movie).

> Benoît Poelvoorde It looks like a very French first name and a very Dutch last name. Is that common in Belgium? Is there a significant overlap between the linguistic communities of Belgium?

Yes there is, another example: Jean-Claude Van Cauwenberghe is a Walloon politician, Geert Bourgeois is a Flemish one.

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#63

Post by R0b0t1 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

yosito wrote: post #39

aetherspawn wrote: post #7

A neighbor once moved the pegs marking our block a few meters so that he could move (and claim) the neutral strip. The most irritating thing, is that he more or less got away with it because he was old and persistent. In fact, he gradually built infrastructure on it, despite hundreds of complaints to the local council and authorities. In the end the council couldn't come up with a good way to settle the dispute, so t…

I've heard many stories of property lines being moved simply by people moving a fence, mowing the grass, or building a structure. If no one has said anything in several years (exactly how many varies by jurisdiction, of course), the assumed property line can often become the legal property line.

In a lot of areas in the US (but not all) a period of notice is necessary. This precludes events where a neighbor steals property from another surreptitiously. In some cases if the land is "abandoned" you need to make the person who owns it aware of it, in others it is presumed if someone does not visit their land for 7 years they have no interest in it.

(This is getting complicated and challenged due to the fact suburbs are popping up nearly everywhere and totally useless land may now be worth money.)

In the case above simply demolish whatever the guy built. He tries to sue in civil court and fails because he had no right to build there.

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#64

Post by leokennis » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

Bayart wrote: post #18

leokennis wrote: post #4

This made me wonder...are (most) of the (undisputed) borders of the world actually stored somewhere? Or are some stones and posts still the "official" borders?

They're stored in law. Treaties define borders in (seemingly) unambiguous terms. Meridians, river beds and so. Problems arise when river beds move and everything becomes extremely ambiguous. In the worst case scenario you've got borders defined by older borders of poorly documented feudal holdings and it's up in the wind where the actual border ought to be. So states have to negotiate to redefine them in modern terms…

Ok…but I’d assume those are pretty hefty law books then?

“Follow river such and so, then on that one field of farmer Jones turn left until the tree, turn right and walk in a straight line to that pointy rock, then walk back to the river etc. etc.”?

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#65

Post by SllX » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

majewsky wrote: post #12

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or more cynically, things only go smoothly when there's nothing at stake.

It's the other way around. The thing that's at stake is economic cooperation, so both sides are more willing to find an amicable solution than otherwise.

France and Belgium are within the Schengen Area and the sign out front says 81 years since the last Blitzkrieg.

This is really small potatoes.

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#66

Post by gumby » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

A few meters from my mother in law's house stood a small stone marker next to the forest path (hers was the last one in the village, and was enclosed by the forest itself). One side of the stone read "Brauschweig", the other "Hannover". It was easy to miss, being buried in the undergrowth.

A few years ago someone got the idea that it was of Important Historical Interest and so moved it further down the path. It's not clear whether this moved the "actual"* border since they didn't place it in the same orientation. Somehow the misorientation annoys me more than moving it.

* "actual" gets quotation marks as the denoted territories no longer exist, though the cities by those names do.

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#67

Post by g_p » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

leokennis wrote: post #4

This made me wonder...are (most) of the (undisputed) borders of the world actually stored somewhere? Or are some stones and posts still the "official" borders?

In the UK (technically Great Britain in this context) at least, there is an open dataset available from the national mapping authority (Ordnance Survey), which is called boundary lines. It contains all of the different boundary lines and borders of local authorities, parliamentary constituencies, regions, nations etc.

This is all geo referenced against the OSGB coordinate system.

I could see interesting challenges in doing this for international borders where both countries use different coordinate systems and projections for their mapping, and the potential for slithers of no-mans-land. I guess at a certain point, you need to refer back to what's on the ground, as over decades the land erodes from the sea, and rock formations collapse and shift as the earth moves etc. The definition of location gets far easier when you have satellites offering precision navigation and timing!

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#68

Post by BitwiseFool » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #36

csunbird wrote: post #21

> A local history enthusiast was walking in the forest when he noticed the stone marking the boundary between the two countries had moved 2.29m (7.5ft). How do you even measure that effectively? Aren’t the stones more than hundreds of meters away from each other? edit: for example, can I do that as well with minimal equipment (e.g. with just a phone)?

GPS. The border was likely digitized a decade or two ago. Someone noticed the stone didn't match the database.

I also feel like the "real" border is a line in a GIS database. Sure, the stone is supposed to be the border based on a 19th century treaty but we all know a 21st century government is not going to actually treat the stone's placement as the official border.

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#69

Post by thaeli » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

markstos wrote: post #61

My family farm got a new neighbor, who noticed that he technically owns a sliver of land with the first 100 feet of our gravel driveway, nevermind that we've been using it for the past 50 years since our property was purchased. I don't think anyone had noticed before, as this goes way back before GIS systems and satellite photos of property boundaries. For decades there's been a fence in the logical place between the…

The easiest thing for everyone involved is for their neighbor to grant an easement for the existing driveway. That way they can keep using it, but it's with explicit permission, so the neighbor doesn't have to worry about an adverse possession claim. If they're not amenable to that, the specifics digfer by state, but usually it's a "boundary line agreement" or similar where you'd basically be buying that small sliver of land and amending the property line accordingly. Here's hoping their neighbors are reasonable!

Re: Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border

#70

Post by capableweb » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

speedgoose wrote: post #60

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aaah I was going to post that :D! It stars one of my favorite comedic actors, Benoît Poelvoorde who is belgian. I'd encourage anyone with a taste for foreign films to check out "C'est arrivé près de chez vous" (Man Bites Dog in english) another great movie of his (features lots of violence and serious themes, not a family movie).

Wikipedia says that they removed the woman rape and the kid murder scenes on the American version, 30 years ago. I don't know if people would appreciate such a movie today.

> I don't know if people would appreciate such a movie today

I'm fairly certain most people outside of the north-american-cancel bubble know how to separate fantasy from reality, so while maybe hard to watch, there won't be any uproar.

Edit: judging by the downvotes, HN is not outside that bubble, my mistake