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The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

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Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#61

Post by criddell »

maxwell wrote: post #25
threeseed wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment could have been written a decade ago and it was as laughable back then as it is today. Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users do. And they don’t want Linux on the desktop.

Why do users choose a platform? Apps. Who makes the apps? Developers embraced Windows over Mac, users followed. (Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine.) Developers embraced iOS and Android over Symbian and webOS. Windows and Mac were great development platforms ten years ago, and iOS and Android were way better than the now-dead competition.

> Why do users choose a platform?

In my family, some of the users chose their platform after asking me what to buy. I'll normally recommend Apple because the hardware is generally pretty good and their service and support through their stores is decent.

Applications usually don't matter, with gaming being the big exception.

If applications really were the biggest factor, Apple probably still wins. Through virtualization, a Mac can legally run more software than any other computer.

> Developers embraced iOS and Android over Symbian and webOS.

Users embraced iOS before developers. The day the iPhone was release, there were far more apps on Windows CE based smartphones but none of that mattered. So I don't think you can say it's all about applications.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#62

Post by Closi »

mmastrac wrote: post #7

Notarization has been a nightmare of a solution to a problem that isn't effective. You can get practically as much security by pushing malware signatures to the client without the massive privacy overreach of having Apple archive each and every bit of code that you generate for distribution. This is just Apple's overreach extended to the desktop. Excessive control that makes developer's lives hell while adding barely…

> You can get practically as much security by pushing malware signatures to the client without the massive privacy overreach

I think the issue with pushing malware signatures to the client is that it is reactive rather than proactive - i.e. by the time you have identified a malware signature, it is already too late (which leads to an inevitable cat-and-mouse / whack-a-mole game).

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#63

Post by maxwell »

robenkleene wrote: post #43
maxwell wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do users choose a platform? Apps. Who makes the apps? Developers embraced Windows over Mac, users followed. (Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine.) Developers embraced iOS and Android over Symbian and webOS. Windows and Mac were great development platforms ten years ago, and iOS and Android were way better than the now-dead competition.

> Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine. I'd argue Mac's were the default developer machine before iOS. E.g., Paul Graham from 2005 ( http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html ): > All the best hackers I know are gradually switching to Macs. My friend Robert said his whole research group at MIT recently bought themselves Powerbooks. These guys are not the graphic designers and grandmas who were buying Mac…

Yeah, I was in college and startups through the mid-00s, adopting Mac at Tiger. It seemed like maybe Leopard was the breakthrough anecdotally, where Boot Camp took away the "but-it-can't-run..." that was the last factor keeping people away, even though no one ever seemed to actually end up ever running Win after all.

I'm not sure what IT purchasing looked like in enterprises and SMBs through the '00s, but I wasn't able to get an Apple machine at a non-tech mid-size employer in the late '00s and it seemed like developers at big employers still had PCs.

I've always been issued (and supplied) Macs since the early '10s, and I'd say at this point, given how bad macOS has become, it ultimately does boil down to the fact that "being able to build an iOS app" is a valuable feature, and no other company can offer it.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#64

Post by lstamour »

Gorbzel wrote: post #53
galad87 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if your subscription lapses previously released software won't stop working. If you are offering free software you can sign with an ad-hoc certificate, and instruct the user on how to bypass gatekeeper, which isn't great at all but it doesn't cost any $$.

Happy Friday everyone. Day ending in 'y', so it's time for that never ending HN Apple haters groupthink exercise: 1. Linux desktop advocate describes a supposed technical implementation from Apple that seems extremely walled garden and onerous if accurate. 2. Outrage ensues. 3. It's never true.

In this case I think it is accurate given forum post evidence, but possibly dated to 2019 given other dates on the page and the fact that Big Sur is not mentioned.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#65

Post by mmis1000 »

thysultan wrote: post #40
maxwell wrote: post #2

Apple devices are becoming increasingly unusable for developers. Fantastic opportunity for Linux apps to gain more dev resources, as anyone with a bit of foresight sees little future in macOS, iOS, Windows, or Android as development platforms.

Not Linux, maybe a new OS. All the current OS's have settled into their consolidate the empires status, so we're just waiting for the barbarians at the gates to free us from their inevitable tyranny.

The windows seems actively develop about linux develop environment recently. The implements wsl2 few years ago. Bring gpu accelerate to wsl2 last year. And they recently implements wayland on wsl2 for full graphic support. Although guys here probably don't really like about ms very much. I think they will able to attracts some *nix developers.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#66

Post by jolux »

mmastrac wrote: post #7

Notarization has been a nightmare of a solution to a problem that isn't effective. You can get practically as much security by pushing malware signatures to the client without the massive privacy overreach of having Apple archive each and every bit of code that you generate for distribution. This is just Apple's overreach extended to the desktop. Excessive control that makes developer's lives hell while adding barely…

>You can get practically as much security by pushing malware signatures to the client without the massive privacy overreach of having Apple archive each and every bit of code that you generate for distribution.

Apple do this too, it's called XProtect: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/protecting-against-...

They also have a built-in malware remediation tool, which is presumably what was used when they killed the vulnerable Zoom web server on everyone's Mac: https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-update-kills-off-zoom-we...

Notarization is clearly part of a defense in depth strategy for macOS.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#67

Post by joseluisq »

maxwell wrote: post #52
Jcowell wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but it means nothing if consumers are not buying the hardware with Linux. The average consumer is not going to put Linux on their computer if it’s not as simple as downloading a browser or upgrading an operating system.

Consumers will go where the apps are: if developers increasingly exit the Apple and Google ecosystems, which seem beset with nearly daily anti-developer actions, the only other option is Linux app development for mobile. The hardware is ready, cheap, and good enough. "Average consumers" are becoming increasingly technically sophisticated as demographics shift, and of course the two leading mobile OSs are already Unix…

Agree.

Probably no so related but your comment remembered me some friends sentence, something like: "end-users don't mind about the technical aspects they just want something that works".

This is an ad-hoc claim and not necessarily true, I know. But turns out that this sentence is trivial nowadays with this such of big impact of technology in people's lives. So users are not foolish, they are every day more aware about software in general. They know what they want and can give you the value that your software deserves so just let's start to tell them more about Linux.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#68

Post by mmis1000 »

Closi wrote: post #62
mmastrac wrote: post #7

Notarization has been a nightmare of a solution to a problem that isn't effective. You can get practically as much security by pushing malware signatures to the client without the massive privacy overreach of having Apple archive each and every bit of code that you generate for distribution. This is just Apple's overreach extended to the desktop. Excessive control that makes developer's lives hell while adding barely…

> You can get practically as much security by pushing malware signatures to the client without the massive privacy overreach I think the issue with pushing malware signatures to the client is that it is reactive rather than proactive - i.e. by the time you have identified a malware signature, it is already too late (which leads to an inevitable cat-and-mouse / whack-a-mole game).

And it does not even work in every case even signature is successfully identified. For example. If the malware already take down the network in some way. There is just no chance for apple to push the malware signatures and fix to client anymore.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#69

Post by Klonoar »

joseluisq wrote: post #21
mmastrac wrote: post #7

Notarization has been a nightmare of a solution to a problem that isn't effective. You can get practically as much security by pushing malware signatures to the client without the massive privacy overreach of having Apple archive each and every bit of code that you generate for distribution. This is just Apple's overreach extended to the desktop. Excessive control that makes developer's lives hell while adding barely…

Honestly I never have seen such piece of crap like "Notarization". One of the Apple's failures ever (if is not the most one). A nightmare (and not cheap) to deal with it as a developer.

$100/yr is fairly cheap all things considered, and it takes thirty minutes Max to set up a bash script to handle it.

And that’s just non-Xcode. If you use Xcode it’s often automatic.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#70

Post by maxwell »

FredPret wrote: post #44
maxwell wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do users choose a platform? Apps. Who makes the apps? Developers embraced Windows over Mac, users followed. (Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine.) Developers embraced iOS and Android over Symbian and webOS. Windows and Mac were great development platforms ten years ago, and iOS and Android were way better than the now-dead competition.

It’s not just apps, drivers and OS basics are key too. I tried half a dozen times to switch to Linux as a daily driver. I gave up the last attempt because two things happened: someone out there pushed a bad update that crashed my GUI for no readily apparent rhyme or reason, and I could not for the life of me get my scanner to work. Now if I wanted to have 17 CPUs or hook a HAM radio into it or do something truly weir…

Well yeah, "software", including drivers and OS integration, not just "apps".

Linux phones no longer seem limited by hardware or cost (at least judging by my PinePhone), more stability and support. Once stability is there in terms of reliability of the core "Minimum Viable Phone" apps, which seems relatively close, there will be a great opportunity for design-oriented founders/brands to craft highly polished experiences without needing to pay off the Duopoly or, worse, trying to compete with them for talent.

Yeah, there will be new innovative startup phones, but what'll happen when every brand can offer their own phone just by hiring a few designers and engineers?

NikePhones, GucciPhones, DunkinPhones, TeslaPhones, McPhones...

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