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EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

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Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#61

Post by zibzab »

cycomanic wrote: post #28

So lots of people commenting that they don't have an issue with such software. Fine, but that's an entirely different debate. This is about the company sueing someone for criticising the software, by detailing how it is supposed to work. So even if we accept that we need such software, do we really want to go down the path that software companies can sue people for talking about how it works and criticising them?

Note also that the original lawsuit was for Ian tweeting about their public YouTube videos.

How can this garbage lawauit be allowed to go on and cost a man $100.000 in lawyer fees??

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#62

Post by cassalian »

mkl wrote: post #44
initplus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your software is ethical, why smear your own name by bringing a spurious lawsuit against a singled out individual like this? There are real concerns around privacy with software like this - what will happen if some criminal finds an exploit in Proctorio's software? This kind of monitoring software is often designed to be hard to detect or bypass, and installs itself in ways that are challenging to remove. Developm…

Agreed, the lawsuit is a terrible thing to do full stop, and doesn't seem to make business sense either. Maybe they think his critiques are worse than the bad press. I agree about the privacy concerns, and in normal circumstances I wouldn't use proctoring software, because all my students would be local (or they would have signed up as distance students knowing this kind of thing would be needed). I would also have m…

> I see it as a currently-necessary annoyance, as the least bad option... shutting down education until the pandemic's over is unfeasible.

Is it necessary though? Have you considered there are ways other than testing for a student to demonstrate their knowledge on a subject? Projects, presentations, and writing all come to mind as effective ways to measure knowledge on a subject and do not require treating all students like cheaters because a few choose to do so.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#63

Post by christophilus »

cycomanic wrote: post #28

So lots of people commenting that they don't have an issue with such software. Fine, but that's an entirely different debate. This is about the company sueing someone for criticising the software, by detailing how it is supposed to work. So even if we accept that we need such software, do we really want to go down the path that software companies can sue people for talking about how it works and criticising them?

I haven’t seen anyone commenting in defense of Proctorio. To be honest, Proctorio seems indefensible. I hope this student makes bank.

To your second point, the US legal system is extremely litigious, so I don’t know how you turn that ship around. I agree that this should be thrown out as a frivolous suit and the student should be compensated for damages— legal fees, time, psychological stress, etc.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#64

Post by scrollaway »

mkl wrote: post #51
cycomanic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct this is a staff failure, the failure lies in using the software in the first place. If we agree that the current situation is so exceptional that we need to fully monitor all students taking exams (and that's still a big if, I also am a university teacher, we don't use any monitoring system. There are other solutions as well such as taking oral exams...), one could simply hire a bunch of proctors who…

Copy-pasting from my other comment: > I see it as a currently-necessary annoyance, as the least bad option. The alternatives have greater deficiencies: human invigilators using Zoom etc. don't scale (institution experience); oral exams don't scale (my experience moderating such assessments); no invigilation leads to cheating (by few students but enough to be a real problem, especially for professional qualifications…

The bar to use such invasive, buggy, user hostile spyware should be a lot higher.

Just because this solves your problem (it clearly doesn't) doesn't mean it's a good idea. Killing half the students also solves your problem.

You need to live in a world where this is not an option, period. What's the next solution then? People forget there are always more manual solutions even if they take more time...

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#65

Post by christophilus »

vanviegen wrote: post #48
Guthur wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually very disappointing that this whole monitoring system was deemed necessary to begin with. How screwed is the system that anyone one would believe this level of intrusion should be part of the education process.

I don't like proctorio, but in situations where it is really necessary for students to demonstrate a certain level of knowledge (think: medicine), I just don't see a reasonable alternative to online proctoring, given the circumstances. Why would you say that this is evidence of a 'screwed' system?

It’s hard to see it in any other light. You could always have online exams happen in front of an online board— take the human interaction we’ve always used and just move it online.

Proctorio reflects the cost cutting, hyper systemization of education, which is a trend that— every time I see it— seems to be antithetical to actual education.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#66

Post by amcoastal »

mkl wrote: post #51
cycomanic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct this is a staff failure, the failure lies in using the software in the first place. If we agree that the current situation is so exceptional that we need to fully monitor all students taking exams (and that's still a big if, I also am a university teacher, we don't use any monitoring system. There are other solutions as well such as taking oral exams...), one could simply hire a bunch of proctors who…

Copy-pasting from my other comment: > I see it as a currently-necessary annoyance, as the least bad option. The alternatives have greater deficiencies: human invigilators using Zoom etc. don't scale (institution experience); oral exams don't scale (my experience moderating such assessments); no invigilation leads to cheating (by few students but enough to be a real problem, especially for professional qualifications…

As both a TA and a student during the virus, we did better and so can you. Stop trying to shoehorn your in person lesson plans and exams into virtual and design new material and tests. Dont be a shitty teacher just because you're too lazy to change your now dated ways.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#68

Post by worik »

zibzab wrote: post #61
cycomanic wrote: post #28

So lots of people commenting that they don't have an issue with such software. Fine, but that's an entirely different debate. This is about the company sueing someone for criticising the software, by detailing how it is supposed to work. So even if we accept that we need such software, do we really want to go down the path that software companies can sue people for talking about how it works and criticising them?

Note also that the original lawsuit was for Ian tweeting about their public YouTube videos. How can this garbage lawauit be allowed to go on and cost a man $100.000 in lawyer fees??

Because the rules are made by lawyers

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#69

Post by necovek »

mkl wrote: post #47
Guthur wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually very disappointing that this whole monitoring system was deemed necessary to begin with. How screwed is the system that anyone one would believe this level of intrusion should be part of the education process.

When you've seen exam-sitting-for-hire in action, you believe it. Most students are honest and genuinely want to learn, and the few that are dishonest cause everyone to be subjected to this. It sucks for everyone, students and staff.

Which does not make tracking everyone a solution to the problem of cheating in exams.

Higher level education is largely voluntary, and it's up to the person taking it up to decide what they gain from it. If they are only in it for a diploma, they'd get there one way or another.

To me, focusing on finding "cheaters" makes education a competition. I never felt cheaters got anything over me in my studies, and I never felt like I've got a lesser grade because of them. Does that happen in cases where you've seen "exam-sitting-for-hire" in action?

Even if you normalize your grading scale based on the students taking the exam right then, if your claim that "most students are honest" is true (and I believe it is), that should not affect any non-cheater significantly (unless you've got a small, non-representative group, but then normalizing grades is unfair to begin with).

So my question is: who are we trying to solve the problem for? What is the expected outcome, knowing that there will always be people who "cheat" their way through life too?

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#70

Post by tobr »

mkl wrote: post #6

I'm sympathetic to the concerned individual threatened and harmed by corporate lawsuits, but I don't think I share the underlying concern. > In Linkletter’s view, customers and users were not getting the whole story. The software performed all kinds of invasive tracking, like watching for “abnormal” eye movements, head movements, and other behaviors branded suspicious by the company. The invasive tracking and filming…

> being videoed by a machine while you do a test is a) not much different from everyone else in the class who's being watched in person

> "suspicious" events get reviewed by a person

Being taped and having that tape scrutinized after the fact is not equivalent to being in the same room as an invigilator. I could accept a live video call as being roughly equivalent, but not if it’s recorded.

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