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Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

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Re: Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

#61

Post by bane »

bane wrote: post #59
makmanalp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just pure bullshit. While I'm all for drug decriminalization, I'm always stunned by the dumb half-truths its proponents come up with as justification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristicin > It should also be added that when consuming raw nutmeg, only 5-15% of the mass consumed is an essential oil fraction, of which only roughly 4% is myristicin,[9] indicating the amount present overall in the nut is from 0…

You have a funny way of disproving me. "This is just pure bullshit." Followed by a list of information about the dangerous psychoactive compound in nutmeg. 5-15 grams (on the low end) is not a lot of food item. A teaspoon = about 4grams. A tablespoon = about 14 grams. Here's 64.9 grams for less than $5. http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Organic-Nutmeg-CERTIFIED-ORGANI... From http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/INDEX57DE.HTM?objecti…

meta:...and here come the downvotes for presenting factual information with no rebutal. I hate to say this is typical on HN, but it's definitely something that occurs in certain "hot-topic" discussions. A downvote here without rebutal is a bit like:"no! you're wrong!"

"based on what specifically?"

"you're just wrong!"

Common HN, we're above that kind of childishness...let's get specific.

Either nutmeg contains Myristicin, which is deadly at about .15 grams of the substance, which occurs in natural concentrations in nutmeg or it doesn't. (it does) We're not talking about car loads of the stuff.

A dosage of about a tablespoon of nutmeg contains a lethal amount of Myristicin, or it doesn't. (it does)

We appear to be in violent agreement about the percentages, dosages and other particulars, so what parts of my statement appears to be the problem?

For fun, I looked up some more:

Comprehensive Review in Toxicology for Emergency Clinicians, Bryson, P. D.

"The chemical agents which are thought to give nutmeg its psychoactive effects are myristicin and elemicin, which are amphetamine-like compounds similar to MDMA...The ingestion of as little as 1 to 2 tablespoonsful, which may contain 5 to 10g in each tablespoon, is capable or producing psychoactive effects described as hallucinations, euphoria, and other distortions of reality as well as many undesirable effects.

The symptoms begin 3 to 6 hours after ingestion and generally resolve in 24 hours. The first CNS effects are giddiness, tingling, dizziness, apprehension, anxiety, and a generalized feedling of excitement. Later, euphoria, visual hallucinations, distortions in time and space, reality detachment, sensations of limb loss, and fear of death may occur. This may progress to extreme drowsiness and lethargy that persist for a day or more."

And another from Emergency Medicine News "The study itself conducted a retrospective chart review of the California Poison Control System electronic database for cases of isolated nutmeg exposure during the years 1997 – 2008. The authors identified 119 single-substance exposures, collected descriptive data, and compared intentional recreational abuse (86 cases) with unintentional exposures (33 cases)."

On Elemicin, the other psychoactive component of nutmeg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemicin

"One study found it to comprise 2.4% of the fresh essential oil."

So nutmeg is probably toxic in slightly lower doses than I've been claiming, but it's hard to find specific toxicity studies that isolate both compounds.

Re: Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

#62

Post by makmanalp »

bane wrote: post #59
makmanalp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just pure bullshit. While I'm all for drug decriminalization, I'm always stunned by the dumb half-truths its proponents come up with as justification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristicin > It should also be added that when consuming raw nutmeg, only 5-15% of the mass consumed is an essential oil fraction, of which only roughly 4% is myristicin,[9] indicating the amount present overall in the nut is from 0…

You have a funny way of disproving me. "This is just pure bullshit." Followed by a list of information about the dangerous psychoactive compound in nutmeg. 5-15 grams (on the low end) is not a lot of food item. A teaspoon = about 4grams. A tablespoon = about 14 grams. Here's 64.9 grams for less than $5. http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Organic-Nutmeg-CERTIFIED-ORGANI... From http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/INDEX57DE.HTM?objecti…

I know how much a gram is.

A gram is a unit of weight. A teaspoon is a unit of volume. A teaspoon of some things might be 4 grams, but not your average grated nutmeg.

Now even if I generously took your large overestimation as fact, and by my sheer lack of luck some person ate a whole pie by themselves, the amount of nutmeg is below even the lower end of that range (5 to 15 grams, by the way, not 0.05 to 0.15 grams).

Finally, you conveniently ignored the last part of my previous post. There are many household substances that you can take undue amounts of. This does not make them more dangerous than most hard drugs. How many nutmeg deaths have there been recorded? How many hard drug deaths have there been recorded? I think number of deaths is a good enough metric of danger. I'll let the jury decide this one.

If you care about making a proper argument, at least use acetaminophen. That's a substance that has actually taken a significant number of lives. And for the record, it wasn't me who downvoted you.

Re: Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

#63

Post by bane »

makmanalp wrote: post #62
bane wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a funny way of disproving me. "This is just pure bullshit." Followed by a list of information about the dangerous psychoactive compound in nutmeg. 5-15 grams (on the low end) is not a lot of food item. A teaspoon = about 4grams. A tablespoon = about 14 grams. Here's 64.9 grams for less than $5. http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Organic-Nutmeg-CERTIFIED-ORGANI... From http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/INDEX57DE.HTM?objecti…

I know how much a gram is. A gram is a unit of weight. A teaspoon is a unit of volume. A teaspoon of some things might be 4 grams, but not your average grated nutmeg. Now even if I generously took your large overestimation as fact, and by my sheer lack of luck some person ate a whole pie by themselves, the amount of nutmeg is below even the lower end of that range (5 to 15 grams, by the way, not 0.05 to 0.15 grams).…

Actually, a gram is a unit of mass.

Re: Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

#65

Post by salemh »

VMG wrote: post #58
mparr4 wrote: post #56

Is anyone else not eager to see these legalized? I'm very interested in psychedelics--and an occasional user--but I've seen what can happen when someone who shouldn't be taking them has a bad trip. Sometimes, it's not even a matter of preparation. A friend and I decided that we wanted to experience a psychedelic. We spent the year prior to our experience reading trip reports and literature, listening to lectures, etc…

> Sometimes, it's not even a matter of preparation. A friend and I decided that we wanted to experience a psychedelic. We spent the year prior to our experience reading trip reports and literature, listening to lectures, etc. and had seemingly done everything within reason to prepare. I'd say you overdid it. > The fact is, psychedelics are NOT for everybody. Neither is alcohol. But if you are over 18, this should not…

Surprised Erowid has not created a iPhone app, or an enterprising HN user, for informed, "realistic" drug education, as our own US system is completely flawed. I'd like to see something made, if only to prevent poor experiences and iterate the dangers of TRULY dangerous drugs. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=meth+use+rural+community...

Re: Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

#66

Post by guard-of-terra »

Deadsunrise wrote: post #54
guard-of-terra wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting. Is there some kind of [psychoactive] drug tourism there? Why isn't it as well known as Holland?

Because it's only legal to posses small quantities for personal use (about 10 days). Possession of bigger quantities has remained prohibited by Portuguese law, and criminal penalties are still applied to drug growers, dealers and traffickers. You cannot go into a coffeeshop and buy some weed as you do in netherlands so it doesn't make much sense to go there as a "drug" tourist.

It's good for portuguese, but not enough for business.

For business, you surely do want to make selling legal. And comfortable.

You have to actively kick the thing out of the door in order to bootstrap a psych tourism business.

Re: Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

#67

Post by MichaelGG »

rdl wrote: post #45
Wingman4l7 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might remove MDMA from that list -- the head researcher at Johns Hopkins for this study was interviewed about a similar 2006 study he did; it mentions that studies at John Hopkins have shown the potential for brain damage from MDMA ("certain nerve cells", anyway). http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/Griffiths...

MDMA is much more potentially dangerous than those other drugs, especially in an acute way. The "safety factor" (ratio between dangerous dose to useful dose) is huge for THC, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, K, etc., and much smaller for MDMA, Meth, K, opiates, coke. There are a few (DOB?) which have safety factors around 2-4x, which is really unsafe. erowid.org is probably a much better source of info on this topic than hacker…

According to Wikipedia, morphine has a therapeutic index of 70:1, and even cocaine is 15:1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index

Re: Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

#68

Post by JabavuAdams »

bane wrote: post #63
makmanalp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know how much a gram is. A gram is a unit of weight. A teaspoon is a unit of volume. A teaspoon of some things might be 4 grams, but not your average grated nutmeg. Now even if I generously took your large overestimation as fact, and by my sheer lack of luck some person ate a whole pie by themselves, the amount of nutmeg is below even the lower end of that range (5 to 15 grams, by the way, not 0.05 to 0.15 grams).…

Actually, a gram is a unit of mass.

Pedantry. We can argue about that when the Martian and Moon colonists go on Nutmeg binges.

EDIT> ... but it won't matter since their scales will be calibrated. If you use a scale you're measuring weight, not mass.

Re: Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

#69

Post by makmanalp »

bane wrote: post #63
makmanalp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know how much a gram is. A gram is a unit of weight. A teaspoon is a unit of volume. A teaspoon of some things might be 4 grams, but not your average grated nutmeg. Now even if I generously took your large overestimation as fact, and by my sheer lack of luck some person ate a whole pie by themselves, the amount of nutmeg is below even the lower end of that range (5 to 15 grams, by the way, not 0.05 to 0.15 grams).…

Actually, a gram is a unit of mass.

Wow, you really addressed all my counterarguments with that one. Doesn't really change your overestimation and doesn't really change the fact that there are no significant numbers of nutmeg deaths and many hard drug deaths.

Re: Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms

#70

Post by bane »

makmanalp wrote: post #69
bane wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, a gram is a unit of mass.

Wow, you really addressed all my counterarguments with that one. Doesn't really change your overestimation and doesn't really change the fact that there are no significant numbers of nutmeg deaths and many hard drug deaths.

sigh at no point are either of you refuting the danger of myristicin and elemicin in nutmeg household quantities of nutmeg. It's just a bunch of pedantic arguing over grams and volumes, and "oh yeah! I'll show you, here are more foods with these dangerous psychoactives in them!"

Probably some of the most bizarre arguments I've ever seen. If it wasn't for the downvotes I'd think you both were agreeing with me.

Specifically to your points, thought you haven't refuted the specific dangers of the two psychoactive components of nutmeg.

"(5 to 15 grams, by the way, not 0.05 to 0.15 grams)"

The smaller figure is the amount of myristicin required to induce death in a grown adult, using your own math.

Most pie recipes I've seen use about 1/4 to 1/2 of a teaspoon of nutmeg powder (I linked to some recipes since you didn't notice).

"There are many household substances that you can take undue amounts of. This does not make them more dangerous than most hard drugs. "

Sure, I could drink a gallon of bleach, or drink water until my blood thins out and I die (it happens) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman...

Is that your hangup? That a tablespoon is more than most people would consume? Really? Wow...pedantic.

Did I not even link to a study of ER visits where the only cause was nutmeg consumption? Are you even clicking the links I provided?

Just because most people don't do a thing doesn't make it dangerous. Most people don't consume gasoline either.

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