Software development is a loser’s game • Hacker News Board

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#61

Post by duxup » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

terracatta wrote: post #28

> If we invert software development, the goal isn’t then to write code that works, it’s spending time on avoiding writing poor quality code and bugs. This line is packaged to sound really insightful, but is it? The goal of software development is to create software in support of some greater mission. That mission might be to make someone's life easier, to make money, to advance human knowledge, or many other things.…

I always read these and wonder "So uh, did you go and talk to the guy and help him out?"

Now maybe they did and the other person refuses to listen (not common in my experience), but I always wonder... you can't just make up 'rules' and expect folks to magically write good code because they followed a rule.

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#62

Post by wpietri » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

preommr wrote: post #11

Because long-term maintenance isn't the concern. Most devs switch jobs in 2-5 years (or at least that's the common advice given). So the incentive is to play musical chairs, and hope that you've moved on by the time the music stops. Software has also been such a new field that it was the startup that moved fast and broke things that got the prize rather than the slow but stable company. I think this is changing (lowe…

I think the heart of this isn't devs changing jobs. It's execs. I know plenty of devs who will be "irrational" about quality in that they build for sustainabilty and longevity far beyond their personal economic incentives.

But when those same devs go up the chain to improve practices or clean up tech debt, they rarely end up happy. I think that's because executive turnover is also fast and the rewards for underinvestment are much larger. Executive compensation is often tied to stock price and other short-term metrics, and executive tenure is also quite short. That gives them a strong incentive to cut anything that pays off over the long term.

Which I think ties back to his professionals vs amateurs thing. One thing that distinguishes professionals is standards. Doctors won't prescribe you anything you want. Real engineers will refuse to build things that will collapse. But a lot of devs are more minions than professionals; if the boss says to build X, they'll build X. Whether that's good for the company, the customers, or society isn't relevant.

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#63

Post by culopatin » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #20

An ask of anyone reading this article: Please don’t let yourself become a smug or cynical programmer. Too many programmers read articles like this and assume that they are the 20% of good programmers while everyone who disagrees with them is the 80% of amateur developers: > I have worked in software development for 20 years, worked on many projects with many software developers. I estimate 80 percent of software deve…

I am one of those that can’t get started because perfection and peer review is in my head. I blame it on Stackoverflow making me feel like a moron every time I ask something.

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#64

Post by freedomben » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #43

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #20

An ask of anyone reading this article: Please don’t let yourself become a smug or cynical programmer. Too many programmers read articles like this and assume that they are the 20% of good programmers while everyone who disagrees with them is the 80% of amateur developers: > I have worked in software development for 20 years, worked on many projects with many software developers. I estimate 80 percent of software deve…

There's very much almost a meme of those programmers who tell us all how everyone else is doing it wrong ... but their whole idea about who is doing it wrong seems to be entirely driven by how often they're inconvenienced by other people's code, but never account for how often others are inconvenienced by their code. I get inconvenienced by other people's code all the time, but it's so easy to assume when you're look…

One of the best experiences I had that humbled me was getting irritated by the inconvenient/obscure code I was dealing with. It was clever as hell, but impossible to understand and even harder to work on. It wasn't buggy but we needed to add a new feature and it clearly didn't anticipate that. I spent hours cursing the bastard who wrote it. Finally after I was done and checked in the changes, I looked to see who had written the original code. It was me.

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#65

Post by agentultra » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

I too have been in software development for 20+ years.

The most effective thing we can do to write better software is to get good rest, reduce stress in the work place, and learn to write and communicate effectively. After that comes skills with the tools and processes around writing software: technical, mechanical skills that can be taught and managed.

You need a mix of people from different skill levels to make an effective team. "Amateur," or "junior," or whatever you classify folks with less experience as bring a lot of energy and enthusiasm to a project. They're often eager to learn and many don't know what isn't possible yet and bring fresh ideas to the table (not every idea is a good one but it's nice having folks on your team who are keeping everyone out of a rut). On the opposite end I don't think you can have "senior" or "professional" developers without anyone to mentor or train and work with. In order to solidify your understanding of a topic you have to be able to communicate it to an audience with less specialization and understanding than you. Knowledge takes time to develop into facts we can take for granted.

Update: If you're interested in empirical evidence of the effectiveness of various software development practices, a handy, light resource: https://www.hillelwayne.com/talks/what-we-know-we-dont-know/

tldr; very few practices we eschew as a professional obligation, like being diligent about writing unit tests, have little evidence to support their effectiveness in reducing errors. The things that do work: sleep, low stress, writing, and probably code review.

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#66

Post by slowwriter » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

terracatta wrote: post #28

> If we invert software development, the goal isn’t then to write code that works, it’s spending time on avoiding writing poor quality code and bugs. This line is packaged to sound really insightful, but is it? The goal of software development is to create software in support of some greater mission. That mission might be to make someone's life easier, to make money, to advance human knowledge, or many other things.…

I feel like it’s the word ‘goal’ that makes one stumble here. I agree that he is not really describing the ‘goal’ of software development. He’s describing how to succeed at software development in order to reach a larger goal.

And although it took me a while to understand what the author is getting at, I do kind of see his point which in my mind could be summarized as: slow and steady wins the race. Or: In order to speed up (in the long run), slow down (in the short term). Be conservative, be thorough, understand that developer productivity isn’t about that LOC per x unit of time.

One analogy that comes to mind for me is Formula 1. Sure, it would be faster, right now, to just not pit. You would have to drive into the pit, stop and wait for the tyres to be changed and drive out again. Meanwhile your opponents are zooming past you out on the track. But if you don’t pit, soon enough your tyres will be worn down and it becomes impossible to keep heat and performance in them, and after a while longer you might even have to stop completely due to a puncture.

The ‘pitstop’ could be anything that ensures productivity in the long term and as such helps in reaching the final goal, and those are the things that take a professional to understand the importance of.

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#67

Post by duxup » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #64

duxup wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's very much almost a meme of those programmers who tell us all how everyone else is doing it wrong ... but their whole idea about who is doing it wrong seems to be entirely driven by how often they're inconvenienced by other people's code, but never account for how often others are inconvenienced by their code. I get inconvenienced by other people's code all the time, but it's so easy to assume when you're look…

One of the best experiences I had that humbled me was getting irritated by the inconvenient/obscure code I was dealing with. It was clever as hell, but impossible to understand and even harder to work on. It wasn't buggy but we needed to add a new feature and it clearly didn't anticipate that. I spent hours cursing the bastard who wrote it. Finally after I was done and checked in the changes, I looked to see who had…

>I looked to see who had written the original code

Oh man that guy is the WORST.

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#68

Post by hoskinator » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

protonimitate wrote: post #52

terracatta wrote: post #28

> If we invert software development, the goal isn’t then to write code that works, it’s spending time on avoiding writing poor quality code and bugs. This line is packaged to sound really insightful, but is it? The goal of software development is to create software in support of some greater mission. That mission might be to make someone's life easier, to make money, to advance human knowledge, or many other things.…

Agreed - this article reads like a "get good" message to "amateurs". Which, sure, you should be striving for constant improvement - but if you work in an environment where sloppy/quick work is incentivized I would argue it's the responsibility of the "professional" to push back and set up an environment for success. Blaming all your issues on more junior members of the team is a huge red flag, and this article doesn'…

I agree junior members should be helped. Lots of developers have a cowboy approach but they aren't junior.

Senior members should set and enforce the standards via best practices, code reviews and setting the definition of done e.g. unit tests, data, deployable etc

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#69

Post by eithed » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

terracatta wrote: post #28

> If we invert software development, the goal isn’t then to write code that works, it’s spending time on avoiding writing poor quality code and bugs. This line is packaged to sound really insightful, but is it? The goal of software development is to create software in support of some greater mission. That mission might be to make someone's life easier, to make money, to advance human knowledge, or many other things.…

I understand where you're coming from, but I'd read it as writing code that will behave the way it's anticipated without any gotchas - merely writing code that works in a specific scenario shouldn't be the goal. Additional benefit would be to write code that easily extendable, but that's not mentioned here.

Re: Software development is a loser’s game

#70

Post by tomphoolery » Thu, Apr 01, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

This article is so pompous. Calling people "amateurs" when they get paid to do something is hilarious at best and damaging to new developers at worst. It reeks of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, by listing a set of good practices and then claiming that you're not a "true professional" unless you grok all of that.

Get this Gen X snobby attitude out of software development. You're making it harder for the rest of us to hire developers we'd actually want to work with rather than snobby douchebags like yourself.