Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation • Hacker News Board

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#61

Post by BluSyn » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:22 AM UTC

arbitrage wrote: post #5

> Megan mentioned that she had stopped taking her medication. She had been on the lowest therapeutic dose of Zoloft for mild anxiety since her early twenties. Zoloft can really mess you up if you stop cold-turkey. How odd that they didn't bring up comorbid risk-factors until half-way through the article.

I was thinking the same thing.

This example is less about the potential negatives side-affects of meditation, and more about the care one should take when getting off serious medications. Most retreat centers (and other "guides") usually suggest several weeks or more of no medication before going on your "journey". The side affects of getting off medications, especially ones she apparently was taking for years, can not be underestimated in this story.

It's also clear she was prone to emotional instability before the retreat, and like any treatment -- pharmaceutical or otherwise -- it can have side-affects that need to be managed, dosages that need to be tweaked, etc.

This story also ignores the 90+% of people who have profound experiences on these Vipassana retreats. Just know what you are getting into, and know it can be very very intense even for those who have practiced meditation for years.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#62

Post by davmar » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:27 AM UTC

gringoDan wrote: post #60

Glad to see this article explore the darker side of meditation. A few years back, I had a sobering experience at a Vipassana meditation retreat and left after a few days. I had feelings of anxiety and despair, which I expected (at least intellectually), but when I started to have suicidal thoughts, I decided it was time to get out. While the Goenka retreats profess to be secular and for everyone, I got serious cult v…

i've completed 2 goenka retreats and i would describe the experience very differently experience from how you did.

first, the nightly videos. not cultish and not metaphysics. don't believe me? view them all here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz7QHNvNFfA&list=PLPJVlVRVmh...

second, plenty of delicious food. if it's your first time, dinner is fruits. if it's not your first retreat you aren't offered dinner, but you really don't need the calories because you've mostly been sitting. all the food is vegetarian.

third, the assistant teachers are well trained.

finally, you left after a few days so you cannot speak to what happens at the end. it's called "loving-kindness" meditation and it's at the end because yes, the retreat can be intense, and it's like a balm to treat any difficulties you encountered along the way. here's a link to what it actually is: https://www.mettainstitute.org/mettameditation.html

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#63

Post by akudha » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:30 AM UTC

haltingproblem wrote: post #58

Long term meditation "enthusiast" who has been around many meditation traditions and also done retreats from 3 days to 3 weeks. Meditation is definitely not relaxation. In the language of Yoga (which meditative traditions share), long meditation sessions move the focus (prana) to certains parts of the body where long sustained focus can create "imbalances" and lead to breaks and other side effects (psychosis or relat…

most of them are never the same ever after

Can you share what happened to them?

Also, you mentioned 3 week retreats. Can you share what changes (good or bad) you experienced during these long retreats?

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#64

Post by tobmlt » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:35 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #38

tobmlt wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I will check this out when I have a chance. I struggled mightily between something like Nietzsche-and-Buddhism as a kid in my 20s. Had to simply put it down one day, but it’s always been on the back burner. “Mastering the core teachings of Buddha” may be next on my audible... we shall see

FWIW, I don't think MCTB works well in audiobook form. The book is extremely dense and needs to be read in depth, even unpacking the meaning of a single paragraph can take some effort. It's something that you really want to have in written form if at all possible.

Oh good point to know, thanks. Kind of disappointed(and kind of happy to hear it’s worthy of such study) as I have to many textbooks to unpack already. The back burner is going to be burning for a while!

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#65

Post by IAmGraydon » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:38 AM UTC

asymptosis wrote: post #46

asymptosis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be forbidden within the context of certain religious paths/orders, but it's not forbidden for random people on the internet to experiment with whatever exercises they come across. I think the site where I got it doesn't exist any more. I think I have a copy in my own archives somewhere. The basic gist of the practices was a combination of various asanas, mantras, pranayama and visualisation.

This was it: https://web.archive.org/web/20040612155253/http://www.kamaka...

You sure it wasn’t the text color/background combination that caused your psychotic break?

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#66

Post by thevardanian » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:38 AM UTC

asymptosis wrote: post #52

thevardanian wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about it being religious, but about it being dangerous, or in some ways a hinderance/harmful to the self. Kind of like how self harm is forbidden. Vamamarga is psychological self harm, in a sense. Aghoris then take that same principle to the next level. The problem is people fetishize, or in other ways make arguments and ideas about Indian origin things within the context of religion. That has in my opinion…

Perhaps you're right, but I wasn't operating within a Buddhist or Hindu paradigm at that time. I was exploring a wide variety of practices as part of a novitiate with the Pact of the Illuminates of Thanateros. Even if someone had told me that it was risky, I still would have had the attitude of, thanks, but I need to find this out for myself from experience rather than just take your word for it.

And that's fine. In fact that is itself a valid argument within the Buddhist/Hindu context. I would even argue it's basis of both "religions"; proof through self experience.

So again, the point here is that it's important to be knowledgeable about whatever subject matter that you're taking part in, not least because of being respectful, but because that way whatever task is being undertaken can be done "correctly". Including, perhaps especially, if you have belief in occult ideas.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#67

Post by galaxyLogic » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:42 AM UTC

gringoDan wrote: post #60

Glad to see this article explore the darker side of meditation. A few years back, I had a sobering experience at a Vipassana meditation retreat and left after a few days. I had feelings of anxiety and despair, which I expected (at least intellectually), but when I started to have suicidal thoughts, I decided it was time to get out. While the Goenka retreats profess to be secular and for everyone, I got serious cult v…

It sounds to me like gurus want followers, teachers want students. It gives them power over their disciples. If you can get people to believe you, you can control them. I think that is the scary part. Hallucinations and peace of mind and stuff are fine, but once you start believing your teacher "knows the Truth", you're on tilted ground. I assume all religions are more or less like that. But with meditation you can actually experience "higher powers" which gives you more reason to believe.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#68

Post by sammalloy » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:45 AM UTC

calt wrote: post #24

Intensive retreats aren't to be underestimated. It's a serious spiritual path that isn't designed to make one well adjusted to this world right away. I think the end result can be a fully integrated self actualized person, but the traditional view is that it might take lifetimes. Lifetimes are not what most westerners are (or should be, imho) willing to sacrifice. Top tier meditation institutions in the west and in A…

> However, if 20 minutes of mindfulness a day sets you off into strange psychological territory, then u have a hard time believing that meditation was at fault

About ten years ago, I experimented doing 20 minutes in the morning and an additional 20 minutes in the early evening. I did this for about six months, and I may have overdid it, because some very, very strange things began to happen. I stopped meditating after a particularly weird and frightening experience which I will now describe:

I was entirely stone cold sober, driving my car on the highway talking to a friend in the passenger seat, when suddenly I found myself looking down at the planet, from what I can only describe as an orbital altitude of somewhere around 400 km or so, while at the same time, I continued to drive the car and have a discussion!

Part of my consciousness (or perception) seemed to momentarily bifurcate and be somewhere else, in this case, floating high above the Earth. That was the day I stopped meditating. Apparently this is a known attainment in certain circles that believe in this kind of thing (I'm still a skeptic at heart) but being in two places at once wasn't my cup of tea. I have a hard enough time as it is focusing on the road in front of me!

I wouldn't say this is the only strange thing I experienced; there's a lot of them to speak of, but that was certainly the strangest of them all. I've taken much more pleasure and satisfaction from lucid dreaming instead, which is something I still do to this day.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#69

Post by galaxyLogic » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

kumarvvr wrote: post #6

The west (and the east too) has commercialized meditation and yogic practices and reduced them to some pseudo medical amalgam that will solve all your health and mental issues. Per Hindu practices, Meditation is the first, foremost step towards self realization. For attaining liberation and knowing god. It is a tool to calm the mind and prepare it for deeper states of realization (samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi, etc). I…

> A true guru is one who has attained realization him/her self.

But isn't that what all gurus say, that they are "true gurus". They would further warn you against anybody who doesn't agree with them as a "false guru"

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#70

Post by throwaway05954 » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

jwilber wrote: post #42

A therapist told me that, for those who suffer from ocd, meditation can do more harm than help. Especially for those who suffer from more rumination-based variants (ie “pure-ocd”). I’ve had mixed results - my personal observation is to treat it like a psychedelic trip: only go in when you’re in a good mental state. The odd thing is the typical therapy for ocd is cbt (cognitive behavioral therapy), which, despite inte…

I was thinking about my own OCD treatment as I was reading the comments here. I've been reading 'The Mindfulness Workbook for OCD' and it had one of the best suggestions and explanations about meditation that I've seen.

As others have said, 'meditation' is a really vague term but in the context of OCD I got the impression it's just about practicing shifting your attention to one thing and then shifting it gently back there when it begins to wander; as well as allowing OCD thoughts to just 'exist' and not engaging with them.

As a fellow OCD sufferer I just wanted to say good luck. A bit off-topic for this thread but 'The OCD Stories' podcast, NOCD (https://www.treatmyocd.com) and the Zoom support groups run by OCDPeers (https://ocdpeers.com/) have been life-changing for me.