Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution' • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#61

Post by temp-dude-87844 » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

Given that some amount of alternate vaccines are available, governments are doing the right thing by "deferring" deployment of this vaccine for a short while, because this move has the highest chance avoiding direct harm to people from medicine (which is often perceived worse than harm that would have befallen people without medicine) and highest chance of avoiding an increase of brand-agnostic vaccine mistrust from the public.

As news about some countries pausing its deployment spread, the pressure rises on other countries to follow suit, as they weigh the risk of public mistrust.

If in the near future, public mistrust about this brand of vaccine climbs higher but confidence in other vaccines does not drop as much, then governments will benefit from having deferred deployment of this vaccine, and they may benefit further by suspending deployment of this vaccine entirely, even if the vaccine is entirely vindicated to be safe.

This outcome would be unfair for the manufacturer, but it would sacrifice this brand to preserve public trust. Public trust is a key factor in healthcare policy in societies where some healthcare participation is voluntary and elections can significantly influence policy priorities.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#62

Post by 5cents » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #10

It seems the rate of these conditions isn't any different for the vaccinated than for the population (last bit of the article makes this point). What's the thought process here?

The rates at population levels are not enough. These are rare cases and, at least partially, in groups of people who shouldn't get that ill and suddenly die

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#63

Post by complex1314 » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

In Norway at least, where we have high compliance and relatively few corona deaths, one important point is to keep public trust in the authorities. The worst case scenario would be loss of trust in the vaccine and loss of trust in the health authorities. Then people would not get vaccinated even if the authorities were recommending it.

Also the symptoms are bizarre, the deaths and hospitalizations from blod clot have all been young health care workers in good health with onset of symptoms a few days after getting their first shot. They have all had low platelet count which is very unusual with blood clots and complicates treatment immensely because the standard thrombolytic treatment is then not safe to use.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#64

Post by bananaowl » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

According to these reports hosted on gov.uk there are reports of fatalities and reactions.

Pfizer: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

AstraZeneca: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Disclaimer from UK.gov:

Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side effects through the Yellow Card scheme. The nature of Yellow Card reporting means that reported events are not always proven side effects. Some events may have happened anyway, regardless of vaccination. This is particularly the case when millions of people are vaccinated, and especially when most vaccines are being given to the most elderly people and people who have underlying illness. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid...

Edit: Added disclaimer from UK.gov

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#65

Post by willis936 » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

calhoun137 wrote: post #39

Since these vaccines got emergency use authorization, that means they did not follow the standard procedure for clinical trials. Therefore, precautionary measures which respond dynamically to trends detected in newly available data, is the logical, ethical, and scientifically correct thing to do, imo.

What newly available data?

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#66

Post by wyck » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #10

It seems the rate of these conditions isn't any different for the vaccinated than for the population (last bit of the article makes this point). What's the thought process here?

Most likely liability. Since all the AZ vaccines were rushed to market they did not go through the regular channels of approval, in some countries legislation had to be changed in order to limit the liability of doctors/technicians and the companies themselves.

I've personally seen the waiver forms send to doctors, and none of the usual testing was done, including the effect on youngsters, pregnant women, etc.

There is a very good reason we had these regulations in place to begin with.

tl'dr: Governments have let AZ off the hook legally if side-effects or worse occur.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#67

Post by the8472 » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #50

dcolkitt wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you see fifty years a few thousand birth defects occurred because one drug was approved too fast. Therefore millions now have to needlessly die while perfectly good vaccines go stale.

> Nearly 60 years ago thalidomide was prescribed to treat morning sickness in pregnant women. What followed was the biggest man-made medical disaster ever, where over 10,000 children were born with a range of severe and debilitating malformations. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26043938/ > The thalidomide scandal may have led to 10,000 miscarriages, stillbirths and infant deaths in Britain, according to the former d…

And yet it's fewer deaths than due to overly cautious vaccine approvals.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#68

Post by lgeorget » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

ssully wrote: post #24

Just announced that France is also suspending use of the vaccine [1] [1]: https://apnews.com/article/germany-suspends-astrazeneca-vacc...

Until tomorrow afternoon, when the european agency in charge of approving drugs should give its guidance on the matter. [1]

[1]: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/live/message/604/f7f/da5/ff4/e9f... (in French)

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#69

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

onetimemanytime wrote: post #27

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #9

The pandemic has made me believe we need to be greater consiquentalists in our polices. It's pretty obvious that on the whole the AstraZeneca vax will save more people than are killed from the side effects. We don't not live in a 0 risk existence.

Ummmm....we can wait and get another vaccine? The vaccine is done on HEALTHY people, we're not talking about meds on terminal stage cancer patients with nothing to lose.

[deleted]

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#70

Post by Cu3PO42 » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

It can definitely be interpreted as CYA. They are following the recommendation of the Paul-Ehrlich-Institute, a federal regulatory body.

Imagine they went against this recommendation and it turns out there is indeed an issue with the vaccine. That would cause a shit storm of epic proportions. This way the "worst" that can happen is that there was a delay.

Now people could die during that delay because they weren't vaccinated, but it's much easier to sweep that under the rug as a politician, in my opinion.