Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can list so many dumb uses of energy out of my head that could be beneficial if banned...
cough ad-tech cough
ad-tech runs on a fractional of data centers right? So it's already eclipsed by crypto.
Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
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Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
#62There are so many frustrated nocoiners here on HN, it’s crazy. It’s interesting that on a tech site people can be more negative towards new technology, than on youtube for example, where I don’t see so much hate....I just don’t understand why.
I think the answer is because it IS a tech site. Members here understand that Bitcoin is a vastly inefficient and ineffective way to achieve the end goal.
My view is definitely that Bitcoin solves a problem I don't have, in just about the worst way possible (proof of work).
Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
#63Proof of work blockchains should be banned by various governments for this reason alone. At this point BTC is a speculative bubble that benefits a very small group to the detriment of the rest of us. I also have a lot of personal frustration with how mining (more of ETH and others) is impacting the global GPU supply. A whole cottage industry has cropped up of sites, discords, etc that provide notifications when GPUs…
Honestly, I'm thinking about buying a brand new Silverado with my crypto just because of how much I hate you whiny climate change bitches.
Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
And don't forget: - space exploration - streaming videos - grocery stores - cars - shipping containers full of fidget spinners - building and maintaining zoos - giant casinos in Las Vegas - hospitals And all the other things associated with the so-called "green" USD ecosystem.
Are you saying grocery stores, cars, and hospitals only exist because of the "USD ecosystem", and would not exist if Bitcoin were dominant?
Of course not!
I thought we were just listing things paid for in dollars. Like "the US military which backs the dollar, and the other armies which compete with it". The armies of the world ain't going away either. Nor banks. Nor status signaling.
Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
#65Bitcoin is a good thing. It's a simple financial system with very few rules that can serve as an anti-fragile backbone for much bigger systems on top of it. Instead of looking for ways to curtail it (because that ALWAYS works, right?) we should be looking for cleaner ways to power it like renewables and nuclear.
Let’s just pretend that all bitcoin mining was done in data centers. That means that whatever practical good bitcoin provides, we’ve DOUBLED the energy usage of data centers. Is that good worth having to build that much additional capacity? What about the problem that bitcoin keeps increasing it’s energy usage? And finally, is there no more efficient (in energy usage) way of doing the same thing?
You can probably tell that I'm a Taleb fan, but it seems that whatever we have in place for doing the same thing is rotten to the core. What happens when we get hit 2x or 4x as hard as 2008? The way financial systems are structured today is the problem, and decentralization seems to be the only answer. Bitcoin is exactly that.
Bitcoin's future value may end up being no more and no less than helping us preserve a functioning world economy given an unprecedented financial crisis. Is that worth double the energy of data centers? Yes, because without it you will have 0 data centers.
Solutions will have to be implemented to curtail that energy use. Could be better power sources, could be more efficient consensus mechanisms.
Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
#66Proof of work blockchains should be banned by various governments for this reason alone. At this point BTC is a speculative bubble that benefits a very small group to the detriment of the rest of us. I also have a lot of personal frustration with how mining (more of ETH and others) is impacting the global GPU supply. A whole cottage industry has cropped up of sites, discords, etc that provide notifications when GPUs…
> Proof of work blockchains should be banned by various governments for this reason alone. How does one ban a blockchain? Serious question. Would you only arrest the miners or would you also arrest non-mining full node operators? How could you tell if regular citizens were transacting with POW coins? Would you subpoena telecom companies for records where customers have visited known sites which transact in POW coins?…
You don't ban the blockchain, you make it illegal to use the coins. Then the network loses value and mining doesn't pay off. If you don't do KYC or AML, you will likely become part of the banned list.
Also you can look for energy consumption. Towns in upstate New York are banning new permits for mining. So it's already happened.
In short, society has certain expectations and if you violate those there will be consequences. Govt and laws are always behind the publics will, so it's coming for cryptos. Which survive is the real speculative bets that will pay off
Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
VISA alone processes over 60,000 transactions per second [0] and only uses a tiny subset of the world's data centers. Bitcoin processes a whooping 7 transactions per second and consumes as much energy as *all data centers globally*. I'm curious to hear what dumb use of energy you have in your head that rivals this level of stupidity. edit: I'll address the "apple to oranges" replies here: you can combine the energy c…
Ripping myself off from another "bitcoin will destroy the world because climate change" thread: > But visa doesn't provide most of the functions of bitcoin infrastructure. Visa does[n't] need to hold the balance of my account. Visa does[n't] need to or makes available all of my equity worth of assets for me to transfer. Visa does not custody my assets. This is literally apple to oranges (or visa to bitcoin)
> Visa does[n't] need to hold the balance of my account.
Yes they do?
> Visa does[n't] need to or makes available all of my equity worth of assets for me to transfer.
This is a horrifying bug, right? A thing that no person would ever want, and it's so rare that visa would make you talk to a person and raise your limit first, or they'd get more people involved to make sure you're not being coerced because it's such an abnormal thing to do. Lawyers in some cases, just because you're being so silly. But if you REALLY wanted to make a $1b debit card transaction, you probably totally could, just call the visa billionaire line.
> Visa does not custody my assets.
But a regular bank can, and visa will send to and from there with a debit card.
Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
I say we should ban data centers instead. They're clearly a scam and no one should be allowed to use them because they waste so much power!
A lot of datacenters provide substantial utility to others. Like the customers of the services that are hosted in those datacenters. BTC mining makes the miners more wealthy. In service of the BTC network, which has what utility? There are quite a number of criminal or at least grey market uses for BTC. But what are the legitimate uses that are not as well or better served by the traditional payment networks?
> In service of the BTC network, which has what utility?
The safest safe haven asset. A global currency of fixed supply controlled by computer algorithms.
> There are quite a number of criminal or at least grey market uses for BTC.
Criminals the world over prefer cash. Should we ban cash?
> But what are the legitimate uses that are not as well or better served by the traditional payment networks?
A programmable, internet-native inflation-proof store of value with transparent fully-auditable supply metrics. Or to quote Elon Musk, “simply a less dumb form of liquidity than cash”.
Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bitcoin's true use case hasn't showed itself yet because it is uniquely suited to help us in case of a select few low probability and extreme scenarios, aka black swan events which we can't predict, but will probably happen.
If those events happen, do you think the infra (electricity generation and telecom interconnection) that it relies upon will still be around?
Yes. I'm talking about financial collapse, not destruction of infra.
Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Um, if it was at 2008 levels, wouldn't somebody do a 51% attack?
Then it wouldn't be at 2008 levels anymore. The problem is that miners have so much power today.
So when you said "Bitcoin would do just fine if its energy consumption dropped to 2008 levels.", the phrase "do just fine" means "rapidly grow its energy consumption back to present levels"?