For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation • Hacker News Board

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#61

Post by whopa » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:12 PM UTC

Pewpewarrows wrote: post #18

jasonkolb wrote: post #5

I don't know that anything Apple is doing is that revolutionary, the difference is that Apple and Jobs are phenomenal at presenting the idea so that people actually get it. I'm sure there are a lot of Microsoft execs right now that are saying "we already do that with product X" and pretty pissed off that they were never able to sell product X over 5 years the way Apple did in an hour. The bottom line is that Apple kn…

> Microsoft and Google both suffer from the same disease, they try to sell a product, not address a need. Actually, Chrome and Nexus-branded Android phones are the only Google products that I've seen advertised, ever. Of their hundreds of products, those 2 are the only ones that they're trying to "sell". In fact, Wave was pretty much their only product that comes to mind that didn't address a need (or at least that w…

Google advertising for non-Chrome/Android isn't common, but it does happen. For example, I was in Vegas a few months ago and the airport had a bunch of ads for Hotpot.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#62

Post by simonh » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:17 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #51

recoiledsnake wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was about non-obvious features. Lets take the Aero snap feature in Windows 7. How many would know that it is possible to drag a window to the sides and the top etc. and have it snap into place for split screen view or to maximize? Most of the people who know would be either geeks, or someone who saw someone else do it or discovered it by accident. Contrast that to Apple's features, which are demoed…

Give me a break, the only people watching these keynotes are geeks.

My wife is a nurse. She has no real interest in technology, though she loves her iPhone. When a new iPhone or new major version of iOS comes out she always asks me about because all her nursey mates on the ward chat about it.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#63

Post by marklabedz » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:18 PM UTC

schrototo wrote: post #25

brown9-2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't designers represent "the user" also? Maybe a closer analogy would have the program managers representing "the business".

I think the difference is that designers have a vision of what the users really want, as opposed to what they say (or even think) they want. Whereas the PMs (in that example) are more the focus-group types.

To (mis)quote Henry Ford: "If had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me a faster horse."

The iPhone, iPod, and especially the iPad represented a near-total re-conceptualization of the product in that space.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#64

Post by kefs » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:19 PM UTC

>> All of the cloud computing services Google offers to consumers, like email, word processing and spreadsheets, happen within the browser.

Factually, this is incorrect. All of the services are available within the browser, but there have been native mobile apps available for gmail/docs/calendar for quite some time now.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#65

Post by DanI-S » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:19 PM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #60

DanI-S wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft need to do more of what they did with XBox - spin off a smaller, more agile brand that doesn't invoke the image of dusty CRT monitors and lumbering corporate IT. Apple's brand identity works for selling consumer products, but nobody really finds value in the fact that their music player or phone was branded Microsoft. Their brand's strength isn't in consumer tech. Apple didn't manage this by standing still,…

Branding is a relatively small issue. The bigger problem is that Microsoft's products simply don't "just work" as digital hub solutions. You can make them work if you want to muck around with home groups, addresses prefixed with //, domains, confusing file ACLs, and "shares". But it takes a lot more effort than just putting in your iTunes username and password, which is how you hook up your Apple devices. The downvot…

I'd argue that, through failure to gain consumer traction, Microsoft just haven't been able to create the network of tightly related devices that Apple has. Thanks to their consumer focus, Apple have an entire platform sharing the same operating system, individual devices developed somewhat in harmony. Microsoft, attempting to corner several markets separately, has competing teams working on entirely unrelated products whose connectedness is incidental.

There was a Steve Jobs keynote from the 1990s posted the other day in which he outlined his vision of a networked device ecosystem. It is very significant that they built the line of devices before they tried to market the backbone. Microsoft was thinking about this concept for just as long, but they never really had the platform.

Edit: To reply, the key is that product follows from brand and marketing. The reason Apple's products are connected so well is that they're all targeted at one market. Microsoft target several, so their products are developed in bubbles.

Edit: To reply again, I think we may be arguing the same thing, but our disagreement is in the reasoning. I believe that Microsoft's lack of a coherent product is due to an attempt to sell their vision to several markets at once; it makes connecting the dots very difficult. Apple's (assumed) success lies in their coherent targeting of a single market, through their strong consumer brand. Both of them are selling a vision; Apple get to amplify this by designing products that fit with their brand.

It's a shame we can't continue this conversation further due to the weird commenting system.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#66

Post by jamesaguilar » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:22 PM UTC

DanI-S wrote: post #65

jamesaguilar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Branding is a relatively small issue. The bigger problem is that Microsoft's products simply don't "just work" as digital hub solutions. You can make them work if you want to muck around with home groups, addresses prefixed with //, domains, confusing file ACLs, and "shares". But it takes a lot more effort than just putting in your iTunes username and password, which is how you hook up your Apple devices. The downvot…

I'd argue that, through failure to gain consumer traction, Microsoft just haven't been able to create the network of tightly related devices that Apple has. Thanks to their consumer focus, Apple have an entire platform sharing the same operating system, individual devices developed somewhat in harmony. Microsoft, attempting to corner several markets separately, has competing teams working on entirely unrelated produc…

Right. Like I said, the problem is not branding but that Microsoft's products do not play well together like Apple's TV box, speakers, wifi base stations, automatic backup devices, phones, computers, and music players, all of which hook up to each other basically automatically (all you have to do is enter your iTunes account info).

To reply to your edit: I think that brand and marketing come from product. You cannot market a feature that does not exist, nor can your brand gain a reputation for an attribute that your products do not have. But underneath, product, brand, and marketing all stem from vision and priorities. Apple and MS shared the same vision, but Apple made this part of that vision a priority. Therefore their products reflect it, their brand gains a reputation for it, and their marketing can highlight the features that support the vision. Microsoft made this part of their vision a talking point, thus their products don't reflect it, their brand lacks the reputation, and any marketing that tries to highlight connectedness of devices rings hollow.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#67

Post by recoiledsnake » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:23 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #51

recoiledsnake wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was about non-obvious features. Lets take the Aero snap feature in Windows 7. How many would know that it is possible to drag a window to the sides and the top etc. and have it snap into place for split screen view or to maximize? Most of the people who know would be either geeks, or someone who saw someone else do it or discovered it by accident. Contrast that to Apple's features, which are demoed…

Give me a break, the only people watching these keynotes are geeks.

What about the media frenzy before and after the event? Don't tell me that it doesn't have a beneficial effect.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#68

Post by ma2rten » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:24 PM UTC

DanI-S wrote: post #56

napierzaza wrote: post #46

MS has been humiliated by Apple for over a decade now. Bill Gates wrote an entire book about the home of the future. And how digital devices would rule it. Who came across and actually did that? iPod, iPhone, iPad and the AppleTV are all very successful and the "digital hub" is basically the same thing that MS has been saying. MS has been doing a lot of catch-up "also-ran" devices trying to do what Apple has done. It…

Microsoft need to do more of what they did with XBox - spin off a smaller, more agile brand that doesn't invoke the image of dusty CRT monitors and lumbering corporate IT. Apple's brand identity works for selling consumer products, but nobody really finds value in the fact that their music player or phone was branded Microsoft. Their brand's strength isn't in consumer tech. Apple didn't manage this by standing still,…

Didn't MS also try to do this with Zune? I think the reason why the Apple brand is so strong is mainly because they are making good products.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#69

Post by JCB_K » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:25 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #51

recoiledsnake wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was about non-obvious features. Lets take the Aero snap feature in Windows 7. How many would know that it is possible to drag a window to the sides and the top etc. and have it snap into place for split screen view or to maximize? Most of the people who know would be either geeks, or someone who saw someone else do it or discovered it by accident. Contrast that to Apple's features, which are demoed…

Give me a break, the only people watching these keynotes are geeks.

Definitely not, I know loads of people who are happy Apple users but by no definition geeks, and they watch it. Just because they want to know what way the platform is going they're using.

Re: For Google, iCloud Is Annoying; For Microsoft, It's A Humiliation

#70

Post by cletus » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 4:29 PM UTC

jasonkolb wrote: post #5

I don't know that anything Apple is doing is that revolutionary, the difference is that Apple and Jobs are phenomenal at presenting the idea so that people actually get it. I'm sure there are a lot of Microsoft execs right now that are saying "we already do that with product X" and pretty pissed off that they were never able to sell product X over 5 years the way Apple did in an hour. The bottom line is that Apple kn…

> I don't know that anything Apple is doing is that revolutionary

Apple is proof that there is a very fine line between good and great but it's hard to make something good great. Apple has a long history (now) of taking things that suck and making them not suck. How do you define revolutionary?

> the difference is that Apple and Jobs are phenomenal at presenting the idea so that people actually get it.

Marketing people will tell you that good marketing sells products. They have a vested interest in fermenting this view. The truth is simpler: good products sell themselves. Marketing just helps.

The real success of Apple isn't in the success of their market (although their ads are really quite brilliant generally speaking), it's that their products are simple enough TO get.

> The bottom line is that Apple knows how to sell products to consumers

Apple is a consumer hardware company. That's all they really do and care about and it shows.

Microsoft is an OEM and enterprise Windows and Office license selling company and it shows.

Apple can (and did) change their desktop OS to make the best experience possible. In Microsoft there would be a turf war (particularly with Ballmer at the helm, given his history) to make sure that any new product somehow pushes the Windows agenda. A new OS? No way that'll happen.

It's not about marketing, it's about singularity of purpose. The guy with one goal is more often than not going to do better at achieving that goal than the guy with that goal and another one.