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Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

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Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#61

Post by _jxdz »

Nextgrid wrote: post #28
justkez wrote: post #19

I recently purchased something from the official UK Nintendo Store [1]. I did not opt-in, and was not asked to opt-in, to marketing emails. Several days after purchase I received a marketing email with an Unsubscribe link. I submitted a GDPR enquiry and after a few weeks I get: Having investigated this matter fully, we can see that you were opted in as a result of a small technical difficulty which we are now fixing.…

In the UK, there's another law called the PECR in place that may supersede the GDPR in this case. I've had multiple merchants get back to me after such a complaint claiming that under the PECR they're allowed to send further marketing solicitations following a purchase. I haven't pushed it further so no idea if this is actually legal or if the GDPR supersedes it.

The Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations (PECR)[1] do not supersede GDPR as such, they sit alongside it.

Section 22 is the relevant section they are hoping to rely on, specifically section 22(3) which allows them to:

----------

(3) A person may send or instigate the sending of electronic mail for the purposes of direct marketing where—

(a) that person has obtained the contact details of the recipient of that electronic mail in the course of the sale or negotiations for the sale of a product or service to that recipient;

(b) the direct marketing is in respect of that person’s similar products and services only; and

(c) the recipient has been given a simple means of refusing (free of charge except for the costs of the transmission of the refusal) the use of his contact details for the purposes of such direct marketing, at the time that the details were initially collected, and, where he did not initially refuse the use of the details, at the time of each subsequent communication.

----------

So in this case, they are obliged to let you withdraw your consent every time they email you. It is not a blank cheque for them to keep emailing you simply because you've purchased something; it is consent-based and therefore uses the same consent processes as the GDPR.

--

[1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2426

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#62

Post by Bakary »

dominotw wrote: post #17
Bakary wrote: post #4

Who came up with the term dark patterns? It's psychological manipulation and fraud, pure and simple

> fraud then take them to court and make a killing.

I sincerely doubt that much financial reward will come for any random individual doing this to any randomly selected website in that sample that does not meet the GDPR requirements.

On one hand, you've technically got the right idea that I ought to put some skin in the game. On the other, it's a reasoning meant to shut down criticism on the same level as the infamous "yet you participate in society, curious!" comic

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#63

Post by hinkley »

Bakary wrote: post #49
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment lacks any explanation at all. Why is the term 'dark patterns' 'psychological manipulation and fraud'?

Every time I see the term 'dark pattern', it's always a case of one or the other, with the delineation into fraud varying depending on the relevant laws. In this case, they mention how websites skirt the minimum GDPR requirements and trick the users to do what they want, so it looks to be both. The term is in the best case superfluous, in the worst case a harmful euphemism.

Your top level post reads as if people who use 'dark patterns' as a term have an agenda, and that agenda is fraud and psychological manipulation.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#64

Post by Bakary »

hnuser123456 wrote: post #8
Bakary wrote: post #4

Who came up with the term dark patterns? It's psychological manipulation and fraud, pure and simple

Because there are shades of gray

There's a spectrum of gray in the effect and scale of the manipulation, but deciding to manipulate the user or not is a binary choice.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#65

Post by ddddfdohvsyknn »

These regulations seem worse than nothing. We already have browsers, we can block and filter cookies based on our individual preference and adjust depending on our tolerance for privacy vs functionality. How has this changed the data collection practices of Facebook or Google in any meaningful way? Not enough people are asking what effect the many new regulatory burdens will have for the internet. It entrenchs the existing players (know who has the money to hire 20 compliance officers for every Tuscan villa?) and makes the barrier to entry to compete more difficult. Plenty of proto facebooks have fallen by the wayside. Remember AOL? Remember Myspace? Now the big players have a hand in writing the law that potential competitors will have to comply with.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#66

Post by Bakary »

rapnie wrote: post #16
Bakary wrote: post #4

Who came up with the term dark patterns? It's psychological manipulation and fraud, pure and simple

Another alternative proposed to IETF inclusive terminology draft is 'deception pattern'. https://github.com/ietf/terminology

I can't say I completely agree with the philosophical outlook behind this list, but this specific term you cite seems like a clear improvement

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#67

Post by detaro »

pixelpoet wrote: post #58

What absolutely infuriates me is this "legitimate interest" crap that is almost always hidden away, and often you have to scroll through literally hundreds of opt-outs with no way to disable them all in a single click. If I'm so damn "legimately interested", why is it on by default and basically impossible to turn off? Find me one person on this earth who is legitimately interested in being tracked by marketing compa…

While I agree it's often bullshit, "legitimate interest" is not trying to argue it to be your interest, but the sites.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#68

Post by ben509 »

s_dev wrote: post #13
Bakary wrote: post #4

Who came up with the term dark patterns? It's psychological manipulation and fraud, pure and simple

Would you consider the fact that bread and fruit and veg are always at the start of a supermarket journey a dark pattern? Supermarkets have gotten customers to spend more than they intended with all their patterns as well -- just like social media sites get customers to spend more time online. It's just what they optimise for. The concept is much older than the coined word.

Most of a supermarket's layout is determined by hard requirements like refrigeration, stocking heavy items and handling payments.

If you're wondering why, for instance, the milk is in the back, it's because it needs to stay cool and it's heavy.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#69

Post by planb »

ddddfdohvsyknn wrote: post #65

These regulations seem worse than nothing. We already have browsers, we can block and filter cookies based on our individual preference and adjust depending on our tolerance for privacy vs functionality. How has this changed the data collection practices of Facebook or Google in any meaningful way? Not enough people are asking what effect the many new regulatory burdens will have for the internet. It entrenchs the ex…

Why is this downvoted? This is exactly what happend. Speaking with non tech savvy users here in Germany, they feel safe and secure on Facebook and fear the „world wide west“ that the open Web has become, where you need to click 20 consent messages on every website without knowing what all that stuff means. This is just like EULAs - one more annoying thing they simply accept with a slightly bad gut feeling.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#70

Post by Bakary »

hinkley wrote: post #63
Bakary wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I see the term 'dark pattern', it's always a case of one or the other, with the delineation into fraud varying depending on the relevant laws. In this case, they mention how websites skirt the minimum GDPR requirements and trick the users to do what they want, so it looks to be both. The term is in the best case superfluous, in the worst case a harmful euphemism.

Your top level post reads as if people who use 'dark patterns' as a term have an agenda, and that agenda is fraud and psychological manipulation.

I don't think everyone who uses that term has an agenda. I'm sure most have good intentions, or just are naturally attracted to new buzzwords. It just so happens the term does play into the agenda of those who have one and who manipulate others psychologically in this way.

The whole topic is a sensitive one. I'm sure a sizeable number here on HN derive some direct or indirect profit from such practices (running, being employed in or having stock in a company that does this sort of thing, especially FAANGs) while also having some dissonant misgivings about how the internet and technology is evolving. Terms like 'dark patterns' only serve to deepen this confusion and create additional moral distance between such tech workers and the consequences of their work, even if they are not necessarily intended to be nefarious: therefore, we ought to discourage it whenever possible.

Of course, in the grand scheme of things, none of what I say here will actually have an effect on any of this, but it's fun to discuss these topics all the same.

In any case, I don't see how any of this can be inferred from that single original sentence, but I'll take your word for it.

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