Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mars Is No Earth

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 106 posts

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#61

Post by kr99x »

People saying that we should not bother colonizing Mars at all are clearly wrong. I can buy the argument that we should not yet do it, but come on.

The Earth will one day be dust, whether by astronomical disaster or by the sun's natural lifecycle moving to later stages. We live on the Earth. If we do not go elsewhere, we will be dust at that time. So for self-preservation, we'll need to go elsewhere eventually.

Mars is elsewhere, and is much easier to reach/terraform/colonize than say... Proxima Centauri B. Mars is a good "practice" shot at being elsewhere.

So obviously, we should go to Mars. It's just a question of when.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#62

Post by munificent »

netsec_burn wrote: post #4

Yet? It seems the writer is debating a view that Elon doesn't have. His goal is to begin the process of making Mars habitable, I'm not aware of anyone with the position that Mars is currently as nice as Earth. Terraforming Mars is a long term vision and not one we'll see in our lifetimes. If we don't take steps towards achieving that goal then of course it will always seem lofty. Martian greenhouses may sooner emulat…

> Terraforming Mars is a long term vision and not one we'll see in our lifetimes.

If you define "terraforming" as "engineering a planet for safe long-term mass human habitation", I would really rather we focus our terraforming efforts on Earth. We're currently not doing a great job at that and it's a several orders of magnitude easier problem.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#63

Post by andrewfromx »

elsonrodriguez wrote: post #60
dehrmann wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be easier to survive on earth engulfed in a dust cloud than Mars.

Yes and no. Society won't survive on earth because earth's society is dependent on fragile supply chains which in turn depend on everything being ok. A Martian society would survive by virtue of already being equipped to operate in a hellscape.

yeah but dehrmann is saying, changing Earth to operate in a hellscape level A is way easier than solving the mars hellscape level B...

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#64

Post by [deleted] »

munificent wrote: post #62
netsec_burn wrote: post #4

Yet? It seems the writer is debating a view that Elon doesn't have. His goal is to begin the process of making Mars habitable, I'm not aware of anyone with the position that Mars is currently as nice as Earth. Terraforming Mars is a long term vision and not one we'll see in our lifetimes. If we don't take steps towards achieving that goal then of course it will always seem lofty. Martian greenhouses may sooner emulat…

> Terraforming Mars is a long term vision and not one we'll see in our lifetimes. If you define "terraforming" as "engineering a planet for safe long-term mass human habitation", I would really rather we focus our terraforming efforts on Earth. We're currently not doing a great job at that and it's a several orders of magnitude easier problem.

[deleted]

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#65

Post by alexvoda »

qayxc wrote: post #24
elsonrodriguez wrote: post #10

> Someone in his position could do so many things on our little blue dot itself to help those in need. The entire article boils down to this one tired old argument. And in the case of Musk, while Teslas don't help people in need directly, the adoption of electric cars and other electric transportation will help the entire world population by reducing air pollution and climate change. So, whynotboth.jpg.

> the adoption of electric cars and other electric transportation will help the entire world population by reducing air pollution and climate change. This one tired old argument again. While reducing air pollution is a plus (at least in city centres), electric cars are nothing but green washing. If you really are concerned about climate change and pollution, reduce the need for cars and own no car. Abandon Euclidian-…

The role that can achieve those goals is not antrepreneour but politician or beaurocrat. Just because someone has proven to be a high achiever does not mean you get to retroactively choose what career they should have had.

Put in the actual work yourself instead of shifting the blame on others for not enacting the changes you desire.

Note: I agree all the issues you listed (mostly city life related) are real important issues. And they are hard issues. Especially because they are not technical issues. And I would love to see them fixed. But they are not Musks responsability.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#66

Post by gmuslera »

Going to mars is something we must do if we want really long time survival as species/culture.

But it is not a solution for our relatively short time problems (100-200 years). It won't solve global warming, nor will be an alternative for mankind against what global warming will do this century here.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#67

Post by alexvoda »

andrewfromx wrote: post #63
elsonrodriguez wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. Society won't survive on earth because earth's society is dependent on fragile supply chains which in turn depend on everything being ok. A Martian society would survive by virtue of already being equipped to operate in a hellscape.

yeah but dehrmann is saying, changing Earth to operate in a hellscape level A is way easier than solving the mars hellscape level B...

Not really, because we can take our time and plan and research and try and fail how to operate in mars hellscape level B. When earth hellscape level A happens there will be no more time left to prepare.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#68

Post by andrewfromx »

alexvoda wrote: post #67
andrewfromx wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but dehrmann is saying, changing Earth to operate in a hellscape level A is way easier than solving the mars hellscape level B...

Not really, because we can take our time and plan and research and try and fail how to operate in mars hellscape level B. When earth hellscape level A happens there will be no more time left to prepare.

ah yes, the political will to do this to earth is not there.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#69

Post by shrimp_emoji »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #32
qayxc wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the adoption of electric cars and other electric transportation will help the entire world population by reducing air pollution and climate change. This one tired old argument again. While reducing air pollution is a plus (at least in city centres), electric cars are nothing but green washing. If you really are concerned about climate change and pollution, reduce the need for cars and own no car. Abandon Euclidian-…

The perfect is the enemy of the good. - Voltaire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

More like the fallacy of relative privation: ```(also known as "appeal to worse problems" or "not as bad as") – dismissing an argument or complaint due to what are perceived to be more important problems. First World problems are a subset of this fallacy.```[0]

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#70

Post by shrimp_emoji »

qayxc wrote: post #53
incrudible wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earth is not paradise, on a timeframe of tens of thousands of years it is a volatile place that could blow us up in an instant. Terraforming and space mining are absolute necessities for human survival. You really only can argue that maybe it is one or two centuries too early to think about colonizing Mars, but you gotta start somewhere.

> Terraforming and space mining are absolute necessities for human survival. Is that so? Which timeframe are we talking about then, because for the entirety of humankind's existence, including its ancestors (so going back at least 4 million years), Earth was a mighty fine place to be. The occasional ice age didn't stop our non-technological ancestors from spreading all over the globe either. > You really only can arg…

> for the entirety of humankind's existence, including its ancestors (so going back at least 4 million years), Earth was a mighty fine place to be. The occasional ice age didn't stop our non-technological ancestors from spreading all over the globe either.

It almost did. Estimates range there were between 1,000 and 10,000 breeding pairs of humans 70,000 years ago.[0]

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

Also, climate shift is implicated in the collapse of Mediterranean civilizations in the Bronze Age.[1]

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse#Possi...

> How about closer targets then? The Moon

Not as hospitable or cool. :c But a Moon base space port seems like an important strategic asset.

> Musk is already fantasising about "1 million people on Mars by 2050", which is just bonkers.

Yep. Have research outposts first.

> A civilisation capable of modifying an entire planet's atmosphere, temperature, and magnetic field would much more easily (in terms of energy required) be capable of creating free floating habitats with orders of magnitude more living space, carefully tuned parameters (air, temperature, artificial gravity, etc.) and versatility than a small cold, barren rock like Mars.

Agree. But bioengineered supervirus or bolide impact or short-range nuclear war are still salient existential threats that multi-planet civilizations would resist better.

> It would be much quicker to create such artificial worlds, worlds, too than to slowly heat up and build up an entire breathable atmosphere.

Artificial habitats are definitely 1,000,000 times better than living on planets for many reasons, but I don't think they're quicker or easier to make than colonizing bodies. How do we do mega-scale construction with our current or near-future orbital industry capacity or material science or governments/incentives?

It seems easier to stay rock-bound for the time being.

> By the way - where are all the required elements for a proper atmosphere and ecosystem

Yep. It's easier to have an improper atmosphere and ecosystem.

Post reply on HN