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I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

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Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#61
post #49
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, the chance that you are a simulation does not depend on the number of simulations in existence. In fact, there is no such chance, as there is no random distribution process you are observing, except you claim that every observer has one of finitely many souls somehow assigned to them. Such things belong into the realm of religion. But even then, either you are real or not. If you are not, there is no re…

A physically random process isn’t needed for probabilities to make sense. Further, suppose a computer agent knew that it would soon have 6 copies of itself (including current state) would be spun up, each in a different vm, and for each vm, a different simulated environment, but that the current copy of itself would also continue running. While each of the simulated environments differ from each-other and the true/ou…

Your contrived example starts with the very premise of a distribution. An agent gets copied. There are 7 variants. You make an experiment and argue that for 6 of the 7 variants your strategy is successful. All builds on the premise of a distribution, because otherwise the notion of chance has no meaning. Note, that the distribution must not be random, but it must exist.

Take the perspective of your agent: There is no way to learn about the number of other agents, and this number is absolutely central to your argument. Every agent will at some point notice that a specific strategy is successful. It will appear like a universal law of nature. For each agent there is no chance involved, it is 100% predetermined what the correct strategy is.

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#63
post #51

I really badly need tl;dr - How can each simulated universe be the same as the one above an below? Why can't they diverge? If they turn off their universe (killing all those below) why would that turn off the one above? Or is it just hope that if you don't the one above won't ? Because while all decisions are possible we make thrones in our self interest because we hope everyone else is playing the same game.

It's because the story is about super-determinism; the simulated universes below are simulated identically to the one they are in, and statistically they are just one in the middle in that "pillar". So if they decide to destructively interfere with the universe below, all the others in the pillar will have the same idea including the ones above.

oh. not free will. ok I get it.

Of course super determinist asteroids become worrying. Or can they adjust those ? If you can interfere can you interfere to produce "good" outcomes ? Steer asteroids away?

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#64
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And.. what if, when you run it forward ahead of the present time, you come to a point where the simulation just crashes and you can't simulate ahead of that point no matter what you do? This is the premise of the tv series Devs. Cool idea but super-bad execution, it just devolves into a standard bad-guy hunting good-guys with pistols story..

In Permutation City , there's a fantastic moment when they realise that they can speed the simulation up, but they can't slow it down below a certain point, and they work out that the reason for this is because they are the ones being simulated by what they think of as their simulation. When they think they're speeding it up, they're actually just slowing down its simulation of them, and there's no lower limit to tha…

Clearly I need to read Permutation City. And watch Devs, even if it does devolve into action.

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#65
post #13

Ian M. Banks novel “surface detail” comes to mind. Please note it is better than the tawdry wiki write up. Somehow, it gets similar points across — similar to this essay, but deeper in feeling. Let me also say the authors here have done really well with so short a format. To paraphrase my toddler son, I want more story!

I loved Surface Detail. It has my favorite Ship Mind and Class in it :)

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#66
You could give this somewhat of a horror ending by having the characters realise, after figuring out the implication of turning the simulation off, that the top level would not have had the black sphere appear and as such would have no reason to keep their simulation running and were about to turn it off.

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#67
I don't really understand the ending. Turning the simulation off could in a way be the morally right decision. Depends on how you think about suffering in the simulation. Some will suffer and what about them? That's why I think it's better to shut off the simulation.

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#68

Very interesting story. After reading a few thoughts came to mind: 1. I don't agree with the "midpoint stability" argument. Since these are simulations - the real one is on the top, but there is no "bottom simulation", since every simulation below is also running a simulation. Hence there is no stable middle point - since there is no middle in the first place. 2. About simulating the future. It seems quite obvious th…

[deleted]

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#69

What if the double-slit experiment is nothing but a bug in the simulator's code ? If so: either we found an exploit or we're building an entire complex theory (QM) to explain a mistake ...

>If so: either we found an exploit or we're building an entire complex theory (QM) to explain a mistake The complex theory correctly predicts real world behavior, nothing changes from our perspective if it's some kind of bug.

Something might if the bug were fixed. All our electronics would just be inert silicon, for one thing. Probably also several very important metabolic processes wouldn't work any more.

This begs for a sequel to "They're Made out of Meat". You know the thing about tabs in Makefiles, how by the time he realized they were a misfeature he already had ten users and didn't feel like he could do that kind of breaking change?

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#70
post #50

Okay, this is wonderful, but there's an obvious, nagging question that hasn't been addressed--what happens if they run the simulation ahead of present time? We know they have fine-grain control over the speed of the simulation. There's no actual obstacle to running it forward ... except the feedback loop gets very weird. I want to read that story.

The author is being slightly inconsistent, with respect to the other premises of the story, in saying there is a feedback loop: as it is set up, simulations have no causal power in the world running them.

If the top-level 'God' people choose to run the simulation faster than real-time, I think we can say that no change will be observable anywhere in the simulation stack, except that the people in them will feel as though they have chosen to speed up their simulation and yet not seen any change in it - which is another of the things that will tell that they are in a simulation and not at the top level. (Note that, as Diane has presumably already said in her paper, free will is definitely an illusion in the simulations. I guess it also is at the top-level, given that their universe is deterministic to the point that it can be simulated to the tiniest detail.)

Now suppose the top-level people choose to run the simulation in reverse. Again, I think we can say that nothing will seem to change to those in any simulation, because, at any point in the reversal, everything, and in particular everyone, will be in the same state as they were in the forward pass, which for the people includes having the same memories, plans and expectations - it will be indistinguisable from an instant in forward-running time. They won't even remember that, at some point, the clock was reversed, as that was not something in the forward simulation's past.

This is where it starts to get interesting: if the clock is reversed again and left to run, what will be observed in the simulations, and by the top-level people looking at the first-level simulation, when the simulations reach the time of the original reversal?

Update: I'm leaning towards the view that the top-level simulation continues forward in time from this point, and observes its simulation go around the loop. In general, the Nth simulation goes round the loop N times before proceeding past the reversal point, but no simulation observes that it is going or has gone around the loop, and therefore cannot determine its depth by counting loops.

Alternatively...

The moment the 'camera' appears in a simulation, it has diverged from the 'real' world. Now some of its inhabitants know they are in a simulation, and so they are not replicating what happens in the real world. The butterfly effect will likely ensure that the divergence will become general. I think this could be undone by sending the simulations around a time loop, as then, if my supposition about how these loops play out is correct, each simulation will exit the loop in the same state as the real world, with no memory of the camera having once appeared.

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