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Stop defacing quotes with brackets

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Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#61

Post by mewse »

hedora wrote: post #26
tomc1985 wrote: post #3

Hard disagree, the shift in perspective from third-person to the first-person quote is jarring. You use the brackets to mold the quote into the grammatical context of the sentence that surrounds. Extra emphasis on the context of the grammar , as changing the overall context alters its message. You can also use those brackets to cut out unnecessary/irrelevant/extraneous words. A necessity, sometimes, and one that is e…

> Hey now, [he is] one of these people, and [he] most definitely exists! Who? How do you know?

> Hey now, I am one of those people, and I most definitely exist!

Who? How do you know?

The problem you’ve presented has nothing to do with brackets or changed words; the same problem is there even with the original words (as above), when the quote is given without attribution as in your example.

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#62

Post by ddingus »

The usage the author points out is odd, and one I would never use.

However, it is not brackets alone that is an issue.

The usage is strange!

Begin excerpt:

They may groan when Corky, denied the massive funding he’s asked for, tells the town council he’s going to “go home and bite [his] pillow,” the way I do now.

End excerpt.

The quote with brackets in it appears functionally equivalent to:

"go home and bite my [his] pillow."

I agree with the author here, and would add calling out the brackets alone is not enough.

There are well accepted and clear uses of brackets in quotes that are lumped in with this arguably, dubious construct.

I read the article title and thought, "Well, no. Is this some purist argument or other?"

Turns out it is not!

Standard bracket use is not in question. Not even mentioned. Normal bracket use does not change a quote at all, when done properly.

The bracket use the author is bringing to our attention DOES.

Go ahead, take a closer look at the full excerpt. Why did they do that?

About the only reason I can find for doing it appears to be a potential misunderstanding between "my pillow", as would be quoted, and the ending statement, "The way I do now."

Why?

The quotes clearly assign "my pillow" to Corky, as opposed to the writer, who post quote says, "I do now", but that is not good enough, apparently.

I would call this being too clear at others expense, as well as an insult to the reader, who is likely to wonder just why "[his]" got put in there.

Did Corky really tell the town council, "go home and bite pillow" broken English style? Of course not, so why bother with the use of a context or clarification device used to muddy both? Edit: Even worse is the case where Corky actually did speak broken English style, which is now rendered a matter of ambiguity because someone thought muddying up the language would help their prose be more clear!

Agree with author on this one.

That bracket abuse, and I am going to call it as I see it here, appears to be quite pretentious, while also adding nothing of value and considerable confusion!

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#63

Post by Rapzid »

atoav wrote: post #33
exmadscientist wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong. Quotes are, well, quotes , and if their grammar absolutely needs to be edited to fit your prose, then that means you shouldn't be using that quote. Editing a quote should be done with grave solemnity -- you are changing someone else's words -- and only to clarify meaning that was disturbed when you extracted the quote from its natural context. Anything else can be handled in your…

IMO using ellipsis [...] or modifying quotes in order to present them in a new context is totally okay, as long as you don't alter the original intended meaning fundamentally by doing so. After all quoting someone at all is already an act of tearing their words out of the context they have been put in by that author. You can misquote someone badly without brackets, while you can quote someone faithfully with brackets…

> as long as you don't alter the original intended meaning fundamentally by doing so

Yeah but that's almost always what's happening when you see those tiny quotes; the author is pushing a narrative and using a sound it to sell it. Particularly in political news and places like Slate..

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#64

Post by jusssi »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #51
jusssi wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Etiquette is circular logic. I was tempted to reply to this by throwing etiquette out of window, but that would get me downvoted to hell. Because there is an etiquette. > Paraphrasing can mangle words so easily. I'm baffled why you would imply otherwise. When I paraphrase someone, they're my words. Not the original author's. I take responsibility for them. > And your edit just makes you look stupid. You're right do…

> I was tempted to reply to this by throwing etiquette out of window, but that would get me downvoted to hell. Because there is an etiquette. There is. But "It's bad because it's bad etiquette", with no further elaboration or citation, is a pretty useless claim.

To me, the etiquette part of quoting being the exception and not the rule was elementary school stuff. Maybe it's a culture difference?

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#65

Post by roelschroeven »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #35
hedora wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hey now, [he is] one of these people, and [he] most definitely exists! Who? How do you know?

You broke the meaning of that sentence on purpose, you don't get to blame it on the brackets. Look at it done correctly: tomc1985 objects that "[he is] one of these people, and [he] most definitely exists!" You may not like how it looks, but it completely solves the fake issue you were making fun of.

Done correctly is keeping the quote very close to the original and changing your text to make that work, instead of the other way around. Much better is:

tomc1985 objects: "I am one of these people, and I most definitely exist!"

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#66

Post by ivanche »

krackers wrote: post #36
Nition wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw one the other day on a news article where they'd put something like "They took him to hospital [sic]." The journalist hadn't realised that "to hospital" is correct English.

"took him to hospital" sounds very weird. Are you sure that's standard in american english?

Why is it weird? Genuinely interested because, as a non-native speaker, I would have said exactly like that.

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#67

Post by Rapzid »

I'm hella suspicious, depending on the source, of quotes that have been mangled, shortened, or otherwise stripped of the context provided by the quotees own words.

It's classic narrative fabrication to paraphrase bs and use tiny mangled quotes to sell it.

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#68

Post by ddingus »

jusssi wrote: post #56
ddingus wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are the words in brackets, and so should be responsibility.

But a quote intermingled with [paraphrase] just becomes a more awkward way to paraphrase? Because surely it isn't a verbatim quote any more.

Sure it is. The grammar is clear. One can know the quote exactly.

Frankly, implying otherwise diminishes the language.

Edit: All of which is why the article was written. People changing quotes, wrapping it in brackets so it flows better, in their view.

That's a mess!

Others here, myself included, correctly maintain appropriate bracket use does not change a quote, which is true until this garbage.

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#69

Post by ddingus »

tomc1985 wrote: post #3

Hard disagree, the shift in perspective from third-person to the first-person quote is jarring. You use the brackets to mold the quote into the grammatical context of the sentence that surrounds. Extra emphasis on the context of the grammar , as changing the overall context alters its message. You can also use those brackets to cut out unnecessary/irrelevant/extraneous words. A necessity, sometimes, and one that is e…

The cost of that bracket abuse is people, having a reasonable command of the language, wondering whether the person quoted actually spoke in a broken English fashion.

The higher order cost is worse!

Breaking well accepted grammar, so that it is now unclear what was actually said both in the future and for readers consuming past works, just so it flows better?

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#70

Post by Illniyar »

I know why Brackets are used in quotes - usually to add a subject that wasn't in the original quote but was obvious from the context, which is missing in the quote.

I've seen these used a few times in the weirdest places and I just assumed the person who originally said the words mixed things up - so in the example quote given in the article I would've assumed Corky said "go home and bite pillow." (cause you know sometimes saying things outloud is messy and not precise)

It would never occur to me that the writer will replace a word in an actual quote.

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