They're a private company guys.
I thought you were all ok with private companies doing what they want.
Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
61–70 of 515 posts
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#62Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.
The gatekeeper is Pakistan, it's their sovereign territory. The Internet isn't outside of that reach, it only exists inside of a territory with the permission of the government that controls it. You might as well be talking about any of a zillion laws within 195 different countries that one might find objectionable, it's exactly the same 'problem.' What's the premise? Pakistan doesn't get to decide their own laws? Th…
Totally right. Remember that capital doesn't have a nation. Companies registered in the US have to comply with US laws.
But a legal entity in Pakistan have to obide by those rules. And if it's profitable - they will.
Replace Pakistan with any other country name, the argument doesn't change. It's the law in that jurisdiction.
You can't really mix and match the legislation you like and don't like.
No idea if the particular law is just, but that's not the question. The question is - is it profitable to abide by it?
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps is more companies refused to do business in a country due to diabolical laws, people would start voting against politicians that create diabolical laws.
So it's up to Google and other international companies to decide which laws are diabolical, which laws are bad and which can be tolerable? Why not going all the way down and let those companies write beautiful laws and also enforce them, everywhere in the world?
>So it's up to Google and other international companies to decide which laws are diabolical, which laws are bad and which can be tolerable?
Why not? They, like anyone else traveling or doing business internationally, should decide which countries should be avoided. They can use whatever opinions or judgements they want. It is possible for a huge international corporation to have some sway on a country by not doing business there. But that's not always a bad thing. I'm more afraid of bad governments never suffering from bad decisions than this slippery slope.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#64Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.
Censorship I don't like...
Hackernews threads seem to be overwhelming against most censorship so you may be preaching to their choir - the silence on the censoring of some hard left groups is a little disappointing.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
The gatekeeper is Pakistan, it's their sovereign territory. The Internet isn't outside of that reach, it only exists inside of a territory with the permission of the government that controls it. You might as well be talking about any of a zillion laws within 195 different countries that one might find objectionable, it's exactly the same 'problem.' What's the premise? Pakistan doesn't get to decide their own laws? Th…
Yeah I agree with you that the sovereignty of people should be respected. But shouldnt we draw some line? Say Israel makes a law that Arab citizens should be tracked through a digital symbol to identify that they are of the non-Jewish subset of the population — should US companies comply? And I specifically choose Israel because it has a history of discrimination against its Arab population.
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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many European countries (like Germany, Italy, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Finland, parts of UK*, Poland, Russia) have blasphemy laws going as far as mandating prison terms, even if they rarely convict or even indict anyone under them. * corrected from "UK".
Nowadays, most Western countries with anti-blasphemy laws on the books still have those laws precisely because they are never enforced. If they were enforced, there would be an outcry sufficient to have them immediately overturned. It is like how the monarch in many a constitutional monarchy today technically still has power, but any actual attempt to use that power would probably lead to the end of that monarchy, at…
I think laws like blasphemy laws and ones against hate speech are mostly there to serve as a last resort in cases that can't reasonably be defended by anyone. There's a lot of grey area that's hard to define very clearly in law. So the laws generic blankets in order to cover a lot of options, then it's left to the prosecution to only take action when the offense is really egregious.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#67This is a good example of why walled gardens are so awful. Sometime they seem fine, but if all one can access is a walled garden, then all kinds of dystopian shit becomes trivial to implement.
Please never support walled gardens!
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many European countries (like Germany, Italy, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Finland, parts of UK*, Poland, Russia) have blasphemy laws going as far as mandating prison terms, even if they rarely convict or even indict anyone under them. * corrected from "UK".
Nowadays, most Western countries with anti-blasphemy laws on the books still have those laws precisely because they are never enforced. If they were enforced, there would be an outcry sufficient to have them immediately overturned. It is like how the monarch in many a constitutional monarchy today technically still has power, but any actual attempt to use that power would probably lead to the end of that monarchy, at…
2018: "In Europe, Speech Is an Alienable Right: [the European Court of Human Rights] upheld an Austrian woman’s conviction for disparaging the Prophet Muhammad."
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#69For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…
"These may seem fair to you"
I don't see 'seeming fair' to most people.
This is just yet another example of Google and Apple's monopoly preferences being leveraged by entities that have more leverage than them.
It has to stop.
Free The Apps.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pakistan only gets to decide what they can practically influence. Apple and Google could design their phones in a way where it’s not possible for Pakistan to wholesale prevent people from using a piece of software.
At which point said phone is no longer available for purchase in Pakistan. This attitude pervades tech-inclined folk's discussions of politics, as if the Internet is somehow above the laws and culture of the places where it operates, especially with regard to the global south. Just because you either don't comprehend or don't respect a given culture enough to learn about it, doesn't mean it no longer applies to you.…
Not available for purchase != not available.
I understand the point you're trying to make: technologists undervalue national sovereignty when it's from a non-Western / less-democratic country.
But try to appreciate parent's point as well: that there are technical qualities about the internet that make it censorship-resistant.