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The Dunant subsea cable

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61–70 of 262 posts

Re: The Dunant subsea cable

#61

I know there are many of these cables that have been around for years, but I am curious how are they physically secured? Especially where they transit from ocean to land? Is there some long underground/sea tunnel of conduit that the cable is routed through to the basement of some building? Or if you are walking along the beach somewhere is there just some cable running out of the ocean along the beach to some buildin…

> how are they physically secured Multiple nations have specialised subs to tap into them. I doubt you'd find anyone willing to make such a guarantee. They are impossible to secure in any way and you need to rely on security assurances at different layers instead.

This was done in the 70s/80s, but I doubt it's worth the effort now. It only worked because the Soviets assumed the cables were inaccessible. End-to-end encryption is a thing even for the general public now.

Now we just compromise the servers/routers. https://gizmodo.com/the-nsa-actually-intercepted-packages-to...

Re: The Dunant subsea cable

#62
post #52

I know a lot is focusing on the Bandwidth. But are we making any progress on Long Distance Subsea Cable using Hollow Core Cable, achieving close to maximum speed of light for theoretical lowest latency possible? Imagine cutting latency from West Coast US to Hong Kong by 50ms! Light is only traveling at around 2/3 of speed within Fibre. The previous decades have been around Bandwidth. Is time we shift out focus to lat…

My bet is on tech like Starlink with inter-satellite communication. Starlink should have lower latency with space lasers compared to fiber.

OP is talking about photonic bandgap fiber I think, or perhaps another kind of photonic-crystal fiber. At any rate, whereas in regular fiber guiding light via differences in refractive index the speed of light is only about 70% c, photonic bandgap fiber can reach something like 99.7% c, which is close enough to c in vacuum as to essentially eliminate the difference vs a free space EM link (particularly for space-based ones which face an extra minimum RTT distance penalty). Last I checked though 3-4 years ago they needed fairly frequent repeaters, were harder to mass produce, etc.

I don't know of any being deployed long distance, though in principle they'd be really valuable for intercontinental backbones. Starlink fills a huge gap in existing infra, and there are places that won't see any sort of fiber, let alone fancy microstructured fiber, for the foreseeable future (or ever, obviously in the case of ships/aircraft). But the bandwidth isn't great. Each current sat does I think 20 Gbps, and though no doubt that'll increase over time that's literally orders of magnitude from this single cable alone. Having the sats support direct ground optical links for backbone usage might be interesting someday, but weather attenuation will never stop being a problem with that. Starlink is filling in the gaps for fiber infrastructure, not replacing it. They're complementary.

So I agree it would be great to see more advanced fiber deployed long distances and start to shrink latency for everyone, and interesting to know what technical obstacles remain if any (maybe a lot remain?). A 40% speed boost while still having massive bandwidth isn't nothing.

Re: The Dunant subsea cable

#63

My Firefox Developer Edition (86) doesn't load the page completely, one of the resources ( https://gweb-cloudblog-publish.appspot.com/api/w_v2/pagesByU... ) has an untrusted certificate (SEC_ERROR_UNKNOWN_ISSUER). It is issued by "Cisco Umbrella Secondary SubCA".

It's issued by GTS CA 1O1 for me. Umbrella sounds like a security thing on your network: https://umbrella.cisco.com/

Re: The Dunant subsea cable

#64
post #8

You could load a modern Javascript-powered website in less than a minute with that.

Especially the linked blog post, as it doesn't render unless you allow JavaScript from gweb-cloudblog-publish.appspot.com (per uMatrix).

Webdevs: is there a reason why a page would be designed so that JS being on is mandatory? Especially for something as prosaic as a couple of paragraphs of text.

Re: The Dunant subsea cable

#65
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bet is on tech like Starlink with inter-satellite communication. Starlink should have lower latency with space lasers compared to fiber.

Won't they be at low enough altitude that they'll need more hops than fiber to get around the globe, where each hop adds at least some delay?

When you're traveling at the full speed of light in vacuum, compared to 2/3rds in fiber, even a few extra hops can leave you with significantly lower latency.

Re: The Dunant subsea cable

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason the vast majority of undersea cables have at least one end in a Five Eyes country. No need to tap it in the middle of the ocean then!

False. Snowden revelations clearly indicated that tapping undersea cables is (unsurprisingly) difficult to detect. A lot of surveillance is done both *illegally* and secretly. Forcing carriers to install black boxes next to their routers is not always the preferred choice.

You are missing the fact that most undersea cables get tapped multiple times. Five Eyes normally inspects the data on land, but enemies will do undersea taps.

While a cable is being tapped, there will be a suspicious change in signal strength, and various signal reflections will tell the cable operators where the tap is. Thats bad for a spy agency who want to remain undetected.

Instead, they break the cable in three points deliberately. The middle point is where they put the tap, and the spy agency will repair it. The points either side are simply so that the cable operators don't know where the tap has been inserted, and have to be repaired by the cable operator. That gets expensive, since it will typically happen 3 or 4 times for a new cable install (3 or 4 countries want access to the data).

Cable repair operations are typically public knowledge (they require specialized ships), so anyone who fancies can crunch the data and see how often a cable breaks in multiple places before being repaired to know how often it's tapped... Mediterranean cables seem to see the most taps.

Re: The Dunant subsea cable

#68
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most certainly. You don’t land a cable in either the US or France without a classified annex to the license that provides for interconnection to their intelligence services.

Let's say they do tap the cables (I reckon they do too but in case they don't) what can they actually see if the traffic is encrypted?

> what can they actually see if the traffic is encrypted?

They can see who is talking to who, and when:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_analysis

Re: The Dunant subsea cable

#69
post #52

I know a lot is focusing on the Bandwidth. But are we making any progress on Long Distance Subsea Cable using Hollow Core Cable, achieving close to maximum speed of light for theoretical lowest latency possible? Imagine cutting latency from West Coast US to Hong Kong by 50ms! Light is only traveling at around 2/3 of speed within Fibre. The previous decades have been around Bandwidth. Is time we shift out focus to lat…

You gotta bore for that sweet latency win. A chord tunnel between San Francisco and Hong Kong would save 1300 miles (20% improvement right there), and if you drill it straight enough, you won't even need a cable.

Alameda enterprises excited by rumours of new chord tunnel Thursday, low latency burrito delivery futures up 5%.

Re: The Dunant subsea cable

#70

I know there are many of these cables that have been around for years, but I am curious how are they physically secured? Especially where they transit from ocean to land? Is there some long underground/sea tunnel of conduit that the cable is routed through to the basement of some building? Or if you are walking along the beach somewhere is there just some cable running out of the ocean along the beach to some buildin…

There's a lot of documented cold war era espionage stuff about tapping undersea cables. Eg https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/intelligence-coup-how...
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