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University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

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Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#61

Post by billyoyo »

LatteLazy wrote: post #18

People should note that: * this is a UK university, tuition is limited to about 30k GBP for a (UK standard) 3 year degree. That's 30k total, not per year. Accommodation is extra. * Leicester isn't a particularly good university. It's ranked 77th out of 121. 50th out of 68 for maths [0]. * The department has been put on notice a few times that it needs more to up its income (get more students, get more research grants…

You state that "a drop in overall intake as more students realise it likely isn't worth the money". This is completely unfounded and not supported by statistics at all [1]. University intake in the UK across all ethnicities has been on a steady increase.

Also, I'm not sure it's true to say UK degrees don't care about the beauty of number's. Again, the statistics show that the number of mathematics students have been according to the overall trend [2]. And anecdotally, comparing with friends from other countries the UK actually seems to have a university system unusually geared to purely academic degrees.

It's my personal belief that while of course university is about getting a job, it's also about learning about adulthood for many people. People use it to delay the start of their working life and enjoy a few years of adult freedom, as well as to get a degree. Anecdotally, I know a lot of my friends went to uni almost entirely for this reason and had no idea in their head about what they'd do after yet. But I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact with increasing lifetimes I think it only makes sense we continue to delay the age at which we enter the workforce.

[1] https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education...

[2] https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/16-01-2020/sb255-higher-educatio...

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#62

Post by kleiba »

turbonaut wrote: post #57
kleiba wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if technological advances is the only thing you care for, sure, then go ahead and get rid of stuff like pure maths. However, are you sure that these advances would not have been made if the US had a different system? Like I argued before, Europe has pretty much copied the system by now but I don't see much in terms of catching up. Take A.I., for instance: completely dominated by the U.S. and China. Europe? Like…

> Take A.I., for instance: completely dominated by the U.S. and China. Europe? DeepMind?

Alphabet is not a university.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#63

Post by netizen-9748 »

raverbashing wrote: post #46
throwaways885 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reality is truly a comedy. One day teachers will be a thing of the past in universities.

One day? Most "professors" (or maybe TA/Instructor is the better definition) are temporary positions paying a bit more than your retail position.

Plenty of them don't do research anymore either, depending on the school

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#64

Post by stablenode »

cm2187 wrote: post #32
kleiba wrote: post #15

I recently read Dijkstra's "On the fact that the Atlantic Ocean has two sides". [1] In vast parts, it's not much more than mildly disguised US-bashing (Dijkstra was always a grumpy old man) but that's not what caught my eye. What did was the fact that he describes the US research landscape as a system that orients itself around short-term projects and industry desires. Dijkstra clearly expresses his contempt for this…

You still have to keep in mind that something like 90% of the technological advances of the XX century were born in US labs. So it’s not that broken.

cm2187: I wonder if you realize that a significant factor in the US scientific prowess is a certain event in the XX century history of Europe which forced a huge number of scientists to move to the US because they weren't 'Aryan enough'. After said XX century event another wave of scientists arrived (or were brought) to the US, only these were 'quite Aryan' but facing career oblivion in Europe due to their past political associations. One way or another, a critical mass of excellent researchers ended up in the US and became a technological asset that no other country could frankly match or even get close, solidifying its technological preeminence for the rest of the century. Obviously, this wouldn't have been possible without generous US funding for science as well (the economy being another area where the US has dominated the XX century).

Also, '90%' sounds suspiciously like a number you produced from deep within your colon.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#65

Post by Closi »

ssss11 wrote: post #55
hedberg10 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate.

This pattern of phrase is so condescending, and insulting to those who genuinely choose to enter a profession.

It's a play on "those who can, teach" which was a marketing campaign in the UK, which somewhat backfired within the UK and became the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach".

Clearly there are lots of people who genuinely choose to enter teaching, but in certain subjects, for some people, it is the de-facto profession if you cannot use your degree to do something else. See Avenue Q's "What can you do, with a BA in English?".

This is more about high school than university-level though.

[Note - I was mistaken - please see the clarification in post below!]

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#66

Post by netrus »

choeger wrote: post #60
ssss11 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This pattern of phrase is so condescending, and insulting to those who genuinely choose to enter a profession.

Unfortunately, it contains a kernel of truth. I personally met staffers at my alma mater that worked there after failing to advance in their academic career but being too well connected to not have a safety net.

I always considered that part of a much needed safety net for a professional where stagnation in the hierarchy is no option, but there are less positions at the top than at the bottom. So yes, a kernel of truth, but not necessarily a bad thing.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#67

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

woofie11 wrote: post #56
anticristi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you analysis, but is this necessarily bad (or rather, is all of this bad)? As a young researcher, my peers and I already noticed the "customer-ification" of academia. Taxpayers are investigating in academia, either via tuition fees or research grants, and expect to see returns: Either more jobs, more competitive national economy or a better life. So far so good. Unfortunately, too much "customer-ificatio…

Well, the underlying problem is high tuition and high faculty salaries. Faculty used to be like a monastery, where scholars could live a simple life to nerd in their topic of nerdhood. Now, my alma mater pays high-tooting faculty nearly a megabuck, pays typical faculty $180k, has $200 million building projects, yachts, and what-not. Tuition went up multifold too. I'm more than happy to pay a bunch of nerds $60k per y…

What nerd with intellect would work as a professor if they could earn the significantly more money working for a hedge fund, FAANG, etc? Genuine question. The current academic hopeful spends their 20s in near-poverty level stipends and are more likely than not to never get a professorship as it is. If they did all that for 60k/yr why would they even bother?

(Additionally I don’t know if it applies here, but often that money to build buildings is with conditions- ie.”you have to use this money to build a building a name it after me”.)

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#68

Post by anticristi »

woofie11 wrote: post #56
anticristi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you analysis, but is this necessarily bad (or rather, is all of this bad)? As a young researcher, my peers and I already noticed the "customer-ification" of academia. Taxpayers are investigating in academia, either via tuition fees or research grants, and expect to see returns: Either more jobs, more competitive national economy or a better life. So far so good. Unfortunately, too much "customer-ificatio…

Well, the underlying problem is high tuition and high faculty salaries. Faculty used to be like a monastery, where scholars could live a simple life to nerd in their topic of nerdhood. Now, my alma mater pays high-tooting faculty nearly a megabuck, pays typical faculty $180k, has $200 million building projects, yachts, and what-not. Tuition went up multifold too. I'm more than happy to pay a bunch of nerds $60k per y…

Nicely put. Some professors want monastery-level accountability with industry-level salary. Have the cake and eat it.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#69

Post by chrisseaton »

Closi wrote: post #65
ssss11 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This pattern of phrase is so condescending, and insulting to those who genuinely choose to enter a profession.

It's a play on "those who can, teach" which was a marketing campaign in the UK, which somewhat backfired within the UK and became the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach". Clearly there are lots of people who genuinely choose to enter teaching, but in certain subjects, for some people, it is the de-facto profession if you cannot use your degree to do something else. See Avenue Q's "What can you do, with…

> It's a play on "those who can, teach" which was a marketing campaign in the UK, which somewhat backfired within the UK and became the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach".

Lol I think you’ve got that backwards!

The marketing slogan was a play on the common criticism of teachers which is a quote of Shaw from around 1900.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#70

Post by pessimizer »

lmilcin wrote: post #31
dandanua wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like our civilization has passed its peak and now bouncing back to medieval ages.

If you read historic books you will notice this sentiment has been present almost constantly since antiquity. The fact is you get current state with all its gory details but the past with bad parts filtered out.

It also frequently happens, and there are many ulti century-long stretches of time in various places in the world from which we have virtually no literature or historical record, not even enough to verify basic facts like what cities were named or where they were located. Sometimes this is because there was virtually nothing being written at the time that anyone thought worth preserving, or because movements, marauders, armies, or some pogrom burned it all and forced people not to discuss the contents on pain of death.

Alarm about the end of civilization is wrong far more often than it is right, but it is eventually right. Societies just recover over time. I'm afraid we've reached the level of technological sophistication that it might be hard to avoid putting a real end to it next time. Our current situation is materially different due to our machines.

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