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84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

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Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#61

Gotta pay more money to keep the talent. This isn't rocket science. The crazy thing is Canada has so many advantages that should make paying higher salaries easier. University is cheaper, so people don't have as much (or any) student debt. Healthcare is cheaper for companies to provide - since they generally only have to offer supplemental coverage. And so on.

Direct taxation is not the whole story. Prices of anything including Canadian made goods are higher here than in the states. We basically earn in cdn but pay in usd. Healthcare is debatable, availability is actually a problem.

Why not simply get paid in USD then?

Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#62
Other than those who have left Canada for the US and a few other small circles, the preference for Canada's best talent to leave for the US and the dramatic difference in career prospects doesn't get a lot of discussion in public discourse.

I believe in part it's because doing so would force us to publicly confront the uncomfortable truth that when it comes to ambition, creativity, and grit, Canadian companies don't employ the A-team. There are exceptions, but they mostly get the B/C players. Some broad generalizations are below, but I've worked in the tech industry for 20 years across multiple US/Canadian cities and in my experience they hold up.

Broadly speaking, you can split Canadian tech worker employers into a few categories:

1) Big, noncompetitive, unambitious, staid large companies making decent money via rent extraction in the Canadian market. Often times "by Canadians, for Canadians". They're minimally innovative and have largely incremental growth prospects, but because they have pricing power over their customers they subsist by turning the screws on customers and tweaking to control costs. They don't grow productivity or produce consumer/market surplus. With a few exceptions, they don't compete abroad (either they do and they're bit players, or they don't but we know they'd get creamed).

2) Small/medium sized Canadian companies. There are some genuinely interesting ones here but honestly, most don't even theoretically have a shot at hitting really big. There are a ton of small/medium sized niches with increasing venture funding, and that's great. But they are just never going to be large or profitable enough to compete with deep-pocketed US employers for the best talent. They'll end up successfully extracting rents from a niche or become the branch office of a US company. If you listen to the Canadian business/tech press we're on the cusp of a major breakout here, but we've been undeservedly pumping this narrative for almost as long as Torontonians have been the only ones in the world pumping the city as "world-class". Is 2021 the year Hootsuite will finally become a unicorn? (spoiler: no).

3) Shopify. They're special (relative to the rest of Canada) because they're a high-growth business in a huge, scalable, global market. Unlike #1 their industry isn't protected, so they actually need to compete on merit and generally do. They're recently profitable, but not that profitable.

4) Canadian satellite offices of US tech companies (some highly profitable, some highly ambitious, and some just there for skilled labour on the cheap). They mostly skim the cream off the top of the local labour markets, paying much better than #1, #2, and usually #3. They also bring skilled talent in from abroad, particularly those with trouble clearing US immigration.

The entrepreneurial A-team generally leaves to start businesses in the US. Canada is too small for them and the environment frankly seems to clip their wings.

The non-entrepreneurial A-team will move to the US to 2-3x their salary and 10x their personal growth (since they're now surrounding themselves with the A-team), which they can do because US immigration is a non-issue for most Canadians in tech thanks to NAFTA. Or they'll stay in Canada and work for either #4 or Shopify, since those are the best jobs. This is really hard to overstate. Anecdotally, from tech people in my social/professional network, with 1 exception the best people are either in the US or work for US companies from Canada.

The B-team works for #2 (who only pays enough to attract the B-team, so it's self-fulfilling) and can still do well for themselves, but it's a very different world. Slower-moving, less excitement, less growth.

The C-team works for #1. They're the ones who work on billing systems at Bell, keep the lights on at BMO, maintain inventory management systems for Metro, or are perhaps involved with government contracting at IBM/Accenture.

#1 are highly politically influential oligopolies. #2 captures a lot of mindshare and (in)direct subsidy ("X is the next Shopify!"). Neither want Canadian tech workers to become more expensive, and they all resent having to compete with #4.

You see this once you look for it. Toronto's Amazon HQ2 bid was run by Ed Clark, former CEO of TD. Part of his pitch was that Toronto software engineers were 30% cheaper than in other markets (if you’re a software engineer who can work for Amazon, 30% is a significant underestimate). Not because of health care. Because of wages. All the while, local tech employers complained about how difficult it would be for them to compete against Amazon for talent. This got a fair bit of press and no one with voice in Canadian public life is willing to fight back. An industry and culture that complains about the presence of competition is not an industry which will stimulate the growth of competitive businesses.

So US companies continue to quietly be the first choice for Canada’s best. Everyone else makes do with what’s left behind.

Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Direct taxation is not the whole story. Prices of anything including Canadian made goods are higher here than in the states. We basically earn in cdn but pay in usd. Healthcare is debatable, availability is actually a problem.

Why not simply get paid in USD then?

Why not btc?

Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#64
I'm curious what the data looks like for the last 4 years.

I recall some clickbait articles about how websites to immigrate to Canada were flooded during election night, and commentators speculating that US academia and tech sector were doomed by the incoming administration.

It would be interesting to see if these predictions held true. Was there a notable change during the last 4 years?

Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#65
As a Waterloo CS grad who moved to the US, I'd say while I am quite happy here and have no plans to leave, all else being equal, I probably would have preferred to stay in Canada. In fact, we had a faculty member who moved to Canada from the US and was somewhat shocked to hear I accepted a faculty position in the US because dealing with funding here is much more painful than in Canada.

Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#66

I'm curious what the data looks like for the last 4 years. I recall some clickbait articles about how websites to immigrate to Canada were flooded during election night, and commentators speculating that US academia and tech sector were doomed by the incoming administration. It would be interesting to see if these predictions held true. Was there a notable change during the last 4 years?

There's been no change, in fact the numbers have gone up because the program has become even more competitive.

Some people in my year (2016) couldn't leave Canada due to visa issues. Most who left are still in the States. 2018s had a higher % US-bound, and so did the 2020s.

Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#67
post #4

As someone who graduated from Computer Science at Waterloo, this is common for anyone with the ability to do so. Pay is not competitive in Canada, and contrary to the common refrain here, taxes/rent/general CoL does NOT make up for this, not even close.

How many of the CS students are non-Canadians who came for their undergrad and now moving to wherever they get the best job, or perhaps even move to California for weather? Edit: I found the answer in the attached document [1]. About half the class immigrated to Canada. The stats for non-immigrant Canadian might be more interesting. [1] https://uw-se-2020-class-profile.github.io/profile.pdf

If 84% leave and half are Canadians then at least (84% - 50%) * 2 = 68% of Canadians leave. Meaning best case 1 Canadian stay for every 2 that leave.

Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't Canada simply... Compete? I mean just looking at the aerospace sector and the CSeries saga, Trudeau immediately bowed down to Trump when tariffs were imposed, despite later being thrown out in courts. All he did was to basically threaten to not buy Boeing fighter jets and instead get f35 from Lockheed (which he was contractually obligated to anyways). No support for the industry, nothing. And that was for…

I think a lot of the problems are deeply ingrained in society and culture. In the UK for example, engineering, especially software engineering is just fundamentally a low social status job, and people with high status running companies are fundamentally adverse to paying for it, and that's unlikely to change for a generation or more. If you try to recommend people pay more to get better engineers and stop them all go…

Software Engineering was low status in US as well until they started to have a ton of software engineer first companies like Google where engineers hires and bosses around business people instead of the other way around.

Basically if typical engineers have business people anywhere in their management chain it is not an engineering first company. Not a lot of large companies are like that outside USA.

Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bombardier is a badly run company that consistently fails to deliver. Government money kept being poured into them for mediocre results. At a certain point they had to be cut off.

That's an opinion customers of the CSeries don't seem to share, judging by the orders for the plane. Care to elaborate?

CSeries was on the few exceptions. Their train division flopped and was sold not a long time as I recall.

Re: 84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

#70
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the taxes/rent/COL. I know three Canadian SWEs whose parents could have easily bought them a nice house or condo in any major Canadian city, if they had wanted to stay. One of them explained it to me this way: the quality of employers, coworkers, and the overall software engineering work you'll do in Canada just doesn't compare to the US. Even if pay/finances were exactly the same, going to the US would…

I "stayed behind" because I didn't qualify for an H1B visa due to being self-taught, but now 25 years later I'm glad I stayed here with my free healthcare and high standard of living. Yes, lots of talented people leave but lots stay as well, for reasons beyond the mighty dollar.

Without any sarcasm, do you use that 'free healthcare'? Because in QC it's not that available. Wait times are really bad, even once something is scheduled it can be pushed to future multiple times. Screens are constantly 'forgotten', pushed to the future. All of my colleagues with European/Indian passports traveled for medical reason to their home countries. Again that's Montreal experience, and as I read that's typical for Canada in general.
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