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For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

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Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#61

Post by triceratops »

mikem170 wrote: post #34
hh3k0 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that the vast majority of countries are democracies, right?

Was there even one government that let their citizens vote on quarantine measures? That's what democracy is, or originally was, right?

Here's a list of elections that occurred in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elections_in_2020

If voters disagreed with quarantine measures, they were free to vote those governments out.

In general, people in representative democracies don't vote on every single government decision. Voters elect representatives who vote on issues. I don't see why temporary health restrictions due to a pandemic would be any different.

Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#62

Post by triceratops »

toomim wrote: post #45
hh3k0 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but you make no sense.

The lockdown gave leaders emergency authorization to make decisions without waiting for votes. In other words, leaders got authorization to bypass democracy.

Do governments put every single decision they make to a general vote? You're confusing representative democracy with direct democracy. How many countries postponed or cancelled elections due to the pandemic? Only those would be considered to have "bypassed democracy".

Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#63

Post by Matticus_Rex »

keiferski wrote: post #14
Matticus_Rex wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American style of individualism in its traditional form is hardly anti-family/village/church. In fact, one of its notable characteristics for early observers used to European values was that Americans were prolific joiners. Want to do something? Start a club for it! That has broken down over the last decades, but blaming it on individualism seems questionable at best.

Nowhere in my comment did I say American. The point is that urbanization and industrialization encouraged individualism. Today, the market itself does so.

Right, and individualism isn't necessarily what you describe it as.

Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#64

Post by mikem170 »

triceratops wrote: post #61
mikem170 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was there even one government that let their citizens vote on quarantine measures? That's what democracy is, or originally was, right?

Here's a list of elections that occurred in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elections_in_2020 If voters disagreed with quarantine measures, they were free to vote those governments out. In general, people in representative democracies don't vote on every single government decision. Voters elect representatives who vote on issues. I don't see why temporary health restrictions due to a pandemic would be any…

In the U.S. the president at the moment got to decide how we'd respond to the pandemic as it happened. Lots of people disagreed. They got to vote in a new president, but that one vote is for a whole basket of issues. Not exactly a referendum on the pandemic, more like a decision on which faction/ideology will be in control of the federal government until the next election. Calling the pandemic response a democratic decision seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

I'm sure the situation is the same in many of the elections that you linked, most countries are republics, not democracies.

Admittedly I wonder about the modern use of the word "democracy" being used to legitimize what was supposed to be a republic, was never meant to be a real democracy, and has drifted into being a plutocracy.

Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#65

Post by triceratops »

mikem170 wrote: post #64
triceratops wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a list of elections that occurred in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elections_in_2020 If voters disagreed with quarantine measures, they were free to vote those governments out. In general, people in representative democracies don't vote on every single government decision. Voters elect representatives who vote on issues. I don't see why temporary health restrictions due to a pandemic would be any…

In the U.S. the president at the moment got to decide how we'd respond to the pandemic as it happened. Lots of people disagreed. They got to vote in a new president, but that one vote is for a whole basket of issues. Not exactly a referendum on the pandemic, more like a decision on which faction/ideology will be in control of the federal government until the next election. Calling the pandemic response a democratic d…

> In the U.S. the president at the moment got to decide how we'd respond to the pandemic as it happened. Lots of people disagreed.

This is the case for every single decision that any election official makes. The general public doesn't vote on individual laws, unless you live in Switzerland. Calling quarantine measures "not democratic" is dishonest for this reason.

Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#66

Post by mikem170 »

triceratops wrote: post #65
mikem170 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S. the president at the moment got to decide how we'd respond to the pandemic as it happened. Lots of people disagreed. They got to vote in a new president, but that one vote is for a whole basket of issues. Not exactly a referendum on the pandemic, more like a decision on which faction/ideology will be in control of the federal government until the next election. Calling the pandemic response a democratic d…

> In the U.S. the president at the moment got to decide how we'd respond to the pandemic as it happened. Lots of people disagreed. This is the case for every single decision that any election official makes. The general public doesn't vote on individual laws, unless you live in Switzerland. Calling quarantine measures "not democratic" is dishonest for this reason.

If the people vote on something I'd say that is a democratic decision. Electing the U.S. president is a democratic decision. Referendums, where they have them, like in California, are democratic decisions. I would not say that quarantines in the U.S. have been democratic decisions.

Like I said, I think the word democracy is abused. Is the U.S. a democracy? The word appears zero times in the constitution. Is the Democratic Republic of North Korea a democracy, just because they say it is? Is Russia a democracy because people get to vote?

In the U.S. we don't vote on issues, we vote on which one of two factions will be in power any given year, the same two parties for the last 150+ years, increasingly the same people over and over, rotating in and out of corporate board rooms and the media, a political class bought and paid for, seemingly more concerned with keeping the population distracted rather than representing them, happy to take on more and more responsibility even thought the population trusts them less and less. Why the need to defend this hot mess and everything it does as democratic, when technically it is not?

Thanks for the Switzerland call-out, I'll be reading more about their system.

Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#67

Post by triceratops »

mikem170 wrote: post #66
triceratops wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the U.S. the president at the moment got to decide how we'd respond to the pandemic as it happened. Lots of people disagreed. This is the case for every single decision that any election official makes. The general public doesn't vote on individual laws, unless you live in Switzerland. Calling quarantine measures "not democratic" is dishonest for this reason.

If the people vote on something I'd say that is a democratic decision. Electing the U.S. president is a democratic decision. Referendums, where they have them, like in California, are democratic decisions. I would not say that quarantines in the U.S. have been democratic decisions. Like I said, I think the word democracy is abused. Is the U.S. a democracy? The word appears zero times in the constitution. Is the Democ…

> Why the need to defend this hot mess and everything it does as democratic, when technically it is not?

If we're arguing technicalities, the US is "technically" a type of democracy - specifically a representative democracy. If we go by your more exacting standards every government decision, ordinance, or law except those by referenda isn't democratic. Which is neither technically correct, nor is it correct as generally understood by laypeople. I agree with all the problems you pointed out but those are orthogonal to the question at hand.

DPRK is not a democracy because it fails several criteria. Russia is a de jure democracy but not a de facto one.

Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#68

Post by throwawaygal7 »

rusk wrote: post #33
platz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be recognized that the left, especially neoliberals, has played just as much a role in atomization of the public as the right. Indeed, it is usually conservatives that actually, in practice, attempt to promote community and family values. Although portions of the right have contributed to atomization via the 'free market', the left's project of scientism and eschewing of tradition arguably has also contribu…

> the left, especially neoliberals It seems kind of funny to see these two lumped together ... I don’t think neoliberalism would be considered left by left people ... I think the confusion arises from the different interpretation of liberalism on either side of the Atlantic. Neoliberalism is an economic movement rather than a social one (unlike neoconservatism, the political ideology that funnily enough advocates neo…

No true leftist fallacy right? nice

Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#69

Post by tharkun__ »

triceratops wrote: post #62
toomim wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lockdown gave leaders emergency authorization to make decisions without waiting for votes. In other words, leaders got authorization to bypass democracy.

Do governments put every single decision they make to a general vote? You're confusing representative democracy with direct democracy. How many countries postponed or cancelled elections due to the pandemic? Only those would be considered to have "bypassed democracy".

You mean like the German state of Thuringia?

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/corona-pandemie-thuering...

Re: For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness

#70

Post by s1artibartfast »

gabereiser wrote: post #60
s1artibartfast wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you brought it up, what factors do you think made you ex-wife susceptible to qanon ideas?

She was always susceptible to misinformation. When we moved to Central Florida a decade ago, they have what’s called “Love Bugs”. An invasive flying beetle from Central America. While on the job as a barista, someone told her they were genetically engineered at UCF. She believed him. Arguing with me that was the truth until I pointed her to science articles and Wikipedia. Fast forward a few years and the thought of s…

Thanks for the candid response! Sounds like a possible psychological disorder.
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