Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t think so. For astrobiology we are mostly looking for life in our galaxy, this study looks at presence of very far away galaxies. For purposes of communication those galaxies are forever out of reach as they are at such high red shifts they are escaping from us faster than speed of light.
"escaping from us faster than speed of light." ?????
New measurements of the sky's blackness
61–67 of 67 posts
Re: New measurements of the sky's blackness
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, if the aliens exist outside our light hyper-cone (that is, by definitio, any kind of information from them has never reached and will never reach any piece of information we create) then it is the same. However, if any aliens have lived or will live anywhere in the visible universe, then that is something we could at least in theory confirm our deny at some point, so it is not the same. It's also important to r…
You introduced "will never" to this argument here. Neither me nor parent comments said that being visible today or in the past has anything to do with being visible in the future. I would argue that science is about a core of what is considered proven and thus is true, as well as topics that are currently discussed and a large amount of knowledge that still has to be discovered. And I think these galaxies that are in…
Re: New measurements of the sky's blackness
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
I never unserstood that ridicule - I always thought it was an apt-description of the levels of ignorance we can honestly presume for ourselves. Refreshingly honest of Rumsfeld, if anything.
> I never unserstood that ridicule Perhaps try the response with a different issue and respondent swapped in? Q: There are reports there is no evidence of a direct link between [...] Vaccination-autism policy advocate: Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; [...] But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.…
The {known, unknown} X {knowns, unknowns} classification is a statement of existence. Just because any of the four combinations here exist, doesn't mean they're equally likely.
The error in reasoning such vaccination-autism policy advocate makes is: they correctly observe the possibility of unknown unknowns in vaccination, but then they incorrectly assume that a) they're likely, significant and impactful, and b) they have to do with body's reaction to the vaccine.
(Hell, arguably the primary unknown unknown in vaccination was the degree to which anti-vaccination memes will spread and prevent populations from being effectively protected.)
Additionally, the focus on this is itself a sign of immaturity. The adult answer here to note that various kinds of knowns/unknowns exist, and then talk about how we can make turn unknowns into knowns, how to estimate the importance and impact of the unknowns, and how to deal with them if they happen.
> UFO-abduction policy advocate: (...)Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Actually, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If your hypothesis predicts something should happen, and it does not happen, it does count as evidence against your hypothesis.
Re: New measurements of the sky's blackness
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I never unserstood that ridicule Perhaps try the response with a different issue and respondent swapped in? Q: There are reports there is no evidence of a direct link between [...] Vaccination-autism policy advocate: Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; [...] But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.…
The ridicule such as in the examples reveals epistemic immaturity. The {known, unknown} X {knowns, unknowns} classification is a statement of existence. Just because any of the four combinations here exist, doesn't mean they're equally likely. The error in reasoning such vaccination-autism policy advocate makes is: they correctly observe the possibility of unknown unknowns in vaccination, but then they incorrectly as…
> Actually, absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
Agreed. And yet Rumsfeld says, in the linked press event transcript,
> Now what is the message there? The message is that there are no "knowns." There are thing we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.
> It sounds like a riddle. It isn't a riddle. It is a very serious, important matter.
> There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist. And yet almost always, when we make our threat assessments, when we look at the world, we end up basing it on the first two pieces of that puzzle, rather than all three.
[emphasis mine]
> The ridicule such as in the examples reveals epistemic immaturity.
Almost. The example replies, were Rumsfeld's, at the two events. Extracts, but I suggest fair ones. The example questions were paraphrased. Then I prefaced the alternate contexts, hoping to better illuminate the flaws in the replies.
The epistemic immaturity you observe, is a property of Rumsfeld's replies, and what I sought to illustrate, in support of GGP seeking to understand the historical ridicule. I'm sorry that ended up less than clear.
Re: New measurements of the sky's blackness
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
The ridicule such as in the examples reveals epistemic immaturity. The {known, unknown} X {knowns, unknowns} classification is a statement of existence. Just because any of the four combinations here exist, doesn't mean they're equally likely. The error in reasoning such vaccination-autism policy advocate makes is: they correctly observe the possibility of unknown unknowns in vaccination, but then they incorrectly as…
I agree with most of that. But those questionable replies? They're Rumsfeld's. > Actually, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Agreed. And yet Rumsfeld says, in the linked press event transcript, > Now what is the message there? The message is that there are no "knowns." There are thing we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there ar…
There's a pattern of confusing/faulty reasoning that I've noticed, which I highlighted in my previous comment. I don't have a name for it yet - but it boils down to noticing a thing or possibility exists and arguing just from it, without bothering to ask how much of it there is / how likely it is. It's reasoning in an unnecessary fog of war, kind of similar to arguing from point statistics (e.g. average and stdev) instead of looking at the actual distributions.
Re: New measurements of the sky's blackness
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with most of that. But those questionable replies? They're Rumsfeld's. > Actually, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Agreed. And yet Rumsfeld says, in the linked press event transcript, > Now what is the message there? The message is that there are no "knowns." There are thing we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there ar…
Thanks for clarifying. I didn't realize those were Rumsfeld's remarks - my fault, I didn't bother to re-read the transcript after recognizing the {known, unknown} X {knowns, unknowns} thing, which I studied in the past. That said, this doesn't change my response to it. There's a pattern of confusing/faulty reasoning that I've noticed, which I highlighted in my previous comment. I don't have a name for it yet - but it…
That looks like "appeal to possibility"? Seemingly sometimes folded into "appeal to probability"?
Re: New measurements of the sky's blackness
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
"escaping from us faster than speed of light." ?????
Red shift can be caused by Doppler shift of frequency and by loss of energy by photons. When Red shift is interpreted as 100% Doppler shift, then we have such absurd velocity. Of course, nobody saw a photonic boom when the whole galaxy crossed the speed of light barrier.