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How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

alexdanco.com

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Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#61

Post by somerandomqaguy »

deepspace wrote: post #13

As someone who has worked in the Canadian tech scene for 25 years, and rode two startups all the way to exit (i.e. acquisition by US companies), in my opinion the problem has nothing to do with exit mindset, good angels, bad angels or SRED. It is all about talent retention. Up until early 2000, Canadian tech salaries at least somewhat kept pace with US salaries, albeit 20-30% lower. After the dot com crash, however,…

>Now that Amazon, Microsoft and Google are setting up shop right here in Canada, the talent drain away from Canadian companies is only accelerating.

Maybe. Canada is bringing 400,000+ new immigrants per year until 2023 for permanent residence status, most of which are skilled workers of some kind. Probably a safe bet between that those three are setting up shop here in part because they can bring in international talent into North America more easily then with the US cracking down on it's immigration policies.

No idea on what effect it will have on salaries here though.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#62

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

pm90 wrote: post #49
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how else do businesses know they're offering competitive salaries, benefits, and perks? I would assume from how many applicants negotiate - or outright reject - their job-offers But yeah - I forgot about the consulting companies that do the survey thing. But we have our own! https://www.levels.fyi/

Interestingly, I haven’t ever seen actual candidate data used to determine compensation. Ie companies almost never use a candidate demanding more to actually change anything. It’s all based on these “professional comp surveyors” as the parent has described.

Unrelated: I'm sure we have our own fantasies of potential employers (or past-employers) begging us to work for them with them increasing their offers or offering other benefits - but I'm curious if that's ever actually happened to anyone.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#63

Post by 3pt14159 »

triceratops wrote: post #52
3pt14159 wrote: post #41

I try to be charitable when I critique an article, so Alex please don't take this comment as a personal attack. I appreciate your writing of this article and your efforts to improve Canada. There are some truths in your article and an interesting perspective on the cascading feedback loops, which I think has merit, but there are some factual errors here that I think should be addressed. > The problem with SR&ED credi…

> Most of our workers don't work as hard and they don't have to worry about healthcare costs. I appreciate that you wrote such an otherwise thoughtful post. But as a founder, I think this may be a blind spot for you. Most SV tech employees also don't have to worry about healthcare costs in any meaningful way. At every company I've worked at in the Bay Area, I've only done more than the standard 40 hours/week when I w…

Well, I appreciate the response. I'm not saying that the difference is huge, just that I've noticed it. The Americans I've worked with seem to get a little bit more done, generally speaking, than the Canadians. Not enough to make up for the difference, but still. And of course we're talking about distributions of productivity here. One of the fastest developers I've ever worked with was French Canadian.

I know Americans that worry about healthcare costs even if they have healthcare insurance, but now that I think of it, very few are from California so perhaps the laws or norms are different there.

Also, the big companies in the Bay Area aren't really what I'm talking about. Google tried to recruit me almost a decade ago and I turned them down. I don't want to be a cog in a machine that big. I'm comparing your typical 50 person startup to a typical 50 person startup in Canada. The salaries are about the same, but in their respective currencies. I could make $200k USD in America or I could make $200 CAD in Toronto. Shrug.

Thanks for the response.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#64

Post by pietrovismara »

Infinite growth is a delusion. Who said that behaving like a tumor is the best path for a company? Especially when we complain all the time about colossal corporations being more powerful than nations. That's what you get with infinite growth: monopolies, too-big-to-fail companies, etc.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#65

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

throwawaysea wrote: post #42
deepspace wrote: post #13

As someone who has worked in the Canadian tech scene for 25 years, and rode two startups all the way to exit (i.e. acquisition by US companies), in my opinion the problem has nothing to do with exit mindset, good angels, bad angels or SRED. It is all about talent retention. Up until early 2000, Canadian tech salaries at least somewhat kept pace with US salaries, albeit 20-30% lower. After the dot com crash, however,…

The hush hush survey is something all tech companies do in the US as well. They report their salary information to a third party company who then shares industry data back with all participants. I am not sure how this is not an illegal price signaling scheme. I heard this from a person who worked in compensation at a FAANG company.

This happens in EU as well. Wage suppression is real.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#66

Post by raverbashing »

AzzieElbab wrote: post #59
deepspace wrote: post #13

As someone who has worked in the Canadian tech scene for 25 years, and rode two startups all the way to exit (i.e. acquisition by US companies), in my opinion the problem has nothing to do with exit mindset, good angels, bad angels or SRED. It is all about talent retention. Up until early 2000, Canadian tech salaries at least somewhat kept pace with US salaries, albeit 20-30% lower. After the dot com crash, however,…

Doesn’t Canadian tax system make higher salaries kind of pointless? Same with bonuses

Do you think Californians or NYkers pay that much less tax?

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#67

Post by djmips »

This is a good take in my opinion and generalizes to any endeavor of creation. You can't plan that. Only when you have figured everything out can you move into a production mode. In game dev, this is informally known as Czerny's method. Production is a finite game but design is an infinite game. Forcing startups to work like they are in production is a good way to lol them.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#68

Post by raverbashing »

DanHulton wrote: post #20
deepspace wrote: post #13

As someone who has worked in the Canadian tech scene for 25 years, and rode two startups all the way to exit (i.e. acquisition by US companies), in my opinion the problem has nothing to do with exit mindset, good angels, bad angels or SRED. It is all about talent retention. Up until early 2000, Canadian tech salaries at least somewhat kept pace with US salaries, albeit 20-30% lower. After the dot com crash, however,…

Literally just left a really enjoyable job with a Toronto company for a California company that pays 50% more. This is completely correct.

I'm assuming the number is 50% higher right? like 100CAD to $150k ?

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#69

Post by jariel »

This is a very interesting piece but:

1) Although it may be impossible ... you might need 'more data' to prove your point and

2) "SR&ED forces you to play finite games, because it forces you to articulate what you’re spending this money on. And so you have to justify, at the very least, what problem you are solving and what specific steps you are taking to solve it. You enter the world of problem definition, where building your startup becomes Serious Work, with official time sheets and government forms. "

I think is just straight up wrong.

Not only is focusing in the problem just fine, it's actually probably a healthy thing.

The 'real answer' to these credits is that they are probably not needed, a 'good startup' should just be able to fund itself.

But the fact that forms and some degree of problem statement are required is not the problem.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#70

Post by jariel »

deepspace wrote: post #13

As someone who has worked in the Canadian tech scene for 25 years, and rode two startups all the way to exit (i.e. acquisition by US companies), in my opinion the problem has nothing to do with exit mindset, good angels, bad angels or SRED. It is all about talent retention. Up until early 2000, Canadian tech salaries at least somewhat kept pace with US salaries, albeit 20-30% lower. After the dot com crash, however,…

It's not Canadian companies that are 'keeping salaries' low, it's Valley Companies (and to some extent, American companies) that are paying a lot.

Also - the USD varies at 1 to 1.5 CDN that has tremendous comparable effects.

The 'reason' is that a vastly disproportionate amount of the surpluses go to the winners.

'2cnd place is for chumps' - at least in the context of 'winner takes all' games.

Everywhere outside of the Valley is 'second place' and it's going to be hard to compete otherwise.

Another way of looking at it:

The market does not want Canada to be 1st place.

Canada is literally designing itself in every way to be a 'suburb' (i.e. as 'second place' country) - no specific identity (i.e. Post-Nation-Nation), high basic standard of living, high levels of material consumption, but no innovation, leadership or otherwise. The 'town square' is a shopping mall full of products and services designed elsewhere.

In crude market terms it's 'more efficient' to close the local coffee shop, put up a Starbucks and have workers take marching orders from Seattle where they can concentrate Product Innovation and R&D.

Canada used to have a few automakers - but with 'consolidation' they were all bought by US firms - which in raw market terms, makes some sense.

The same would happen to all protected industries: Bell/Telus, CTV/Global, CIBC/BMO - all of it them be snapped up instantly if they were not protected.

It doesn't matter if AT&T/Verizon are 'well managed' or 'poorly managed' relative to Bell/Telus - the fact is they are 15x bigger and that's that. 'Headquarters' will be in Virginia, not Toronto. And that's where the surpluses will go.

Canada brings in tons of 'educated workers' and then sends the best and brightest of them right away to the US (I've seen this happen time and time again). Who can blame anyone with 'no ties' to Canada moving on for 2x salary? So Canada gets 'good workers' ... and the US gets 'the talent'.

An Ontario MP, trying to attract Cisco to Toronto indicated that Canadians work for less salary than Americans and that he would do everything within his power to keep it that way.

So there you have literally the leadership trying to do what they can to keep salaries low, to keep the system firmly in '2cnd place', by design.

This is the Canadian National Strategy.

If you want to do something exceptional, go to specific places in the US where systems are designed for that.

The theory being that it's better than being in a left out US state like Arkansas, West Virginia etc..

In some ways, it's commendable, because Canada relative to the world has a really high standard of living, stable 'everything', good basic rights etc.. But of course, there is not a lot meaningful to do. That's the deal.

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