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Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

nytimes.com

61–70 of 94 posts

Re: Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

#61

I like the goals of Solid, but tech-wise I fear it's headed into the weeds. A detailed critique from a few days' deep dive into the tech stack: https://forum.solidproject.org/t/constructive-criticism-from...

tl;dr: Solid is exposing a database of data with a filesystem API. This will not end well.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

#62
Its a great project and it would solve a lot of problems we face today for sure. But i fear it will suffer with a problem of adoption.

People had to learn HTML and HTTP back in the day, because it was the thing that would turn possible to transfer information through the wire with a platform called browser.

It was the same with the Windows API, VB, Delphi or Android and the iPhone is today.

People will learn that thing not because it will 'save the world', sure some will, but for more pragmatic reasons. So you also have to offer those pragmatic reasons to people, because those reasons are also important after all.

I know TBL was more or less on the "hippie" side of the web standards and it was very important to the web's core and foundation on the right track.

But i was not because of the HTML standard was great as a piece of technology, but the energy and the people that formed around it made it happen through the patient iteration over browsers, until browsers became a thing no one could avoid.

I'm saying this as somebody working more or less on the same problem, but who have taken a different approach..

The problem is hard because the state-of-the-art now is very sophisticated. You will have to compete with browsers and app platforms for mindshare, and i think you only can do it if you propose a new platform where people understand it as a better approach.

And i must say, the web alone as it is, is a broken foundation to lay out this sort of thing, for a lot of reasons.

So we need a new sort of browser, one that's so different that you actually wont even be able to call it a browser anymore.

This is what i'm trying to do. Trying to solve the same sort of problems, but with a different take than Solid.

But i must say its pretty hard, because you also have to offer, at least as a starting point, what browsers and application platforms already offer to developer. Along with this, there's a need for a incentive on the part of the user, the ultimate consumer of the thing. And this is also a hard problem, because you will need to offer something people want and dont have already..

I think i got this, but only time will tell. And even if the thing is somehow "right", even than you might suffer from lack of adoption as the incentives might not be enough and that 'killer app' that will make the platform boom never shows up.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

#64
post #59

Yesterday I got pissed when I tried to download a podcast episode. It is available on Apple, Google and Spotify, but these platforms won't let you download a simple mp3. Ended up having to pay for the network traffic. Freedom is the better technology, and Solid claims to offer freedom but if you look closely it doesn't. In what world does a specification designed by comity, describing functionality that existed for a…

I run a podcast, and built my own distribution to spotify, itunes, etc. Those platforms just consume an rss feed and the mp3s are hosted on my s3 bucket

Here's what the rss feeds look like

Https://codechefs.dev/rss.xml

If you do some google searches on "podcast name rss" I'm sure a public feed will pop up

But yeah I'm not sure why these platforms don't let you see the rss feeds though

Re: Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

#65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? The 3rd parties will still need to copy the data, even temporarily, to be able to do anything with it.

If I understand correctly, that's the point. Nobody should be able to read or copy your data without permission.

Again, the issue is that once you did share (= sent to) the data once with anyone, you don't have any technical control over what might happen to it (see the pirate bay as an example).

Quantum anti-tampering isn't going to help here, where it's your interlocutor that is the one that can't be trusted.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

#66

TBL and W3C could enable competition to de facto monopolies such as FB by providing web standards that enable competitors to overcome FB's inherent walled garden first mover silo advantage. How? Extend HTML to include a Like button and a Share button, and implement a new standard that defines an open access comment platform. I'm not suggesting W3C should set up servers to compete with service providers. Rather, it co…

So what exactly would they have to add to HTML?

They don't really have to add anything to HTML. I just put it that way to express the idea of the "Like" button being a page element available anywhere on the web, rather than only inside a walled garden.

What is really required is a database protocol for tracking Likes, or "a client/server API for creating, updating, and deleting content, as well as a federated server-to-server API for delivering notifications and content."

But they have that! I didn't know about ActivityPub until I read mxuribe's comment above. That's a good start.

As mxuribe says, "having an existing standard doesn't mean that the Facebooks's of the world will choose to adopt it." I would expect FB to resist it. But if the backlash and dissatisfaction with FB grows, a protocol like ActivityPub is a necessary enabler for something new to happen. By allowing multiple providers to share content in a federated model, the protocol could grow organically without requiring one big new player to migrate all the FB users to a new monopoly.

Once it starts to happen, FB customers could be bridged into the new federated universe with translators that mirror content from FB into the new ecosystem.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

#67
Something I rarely see brought up in these articles is the difficulty of defining "data" and who would own it. If I buy something on Amazon to be shipped to me from a third party seller, which part of that transaction is data that belongs to me? To Amazon? The the third party?

The article ventures a short list: "websites visited, credit card purchases, workout routines, music streamed", but I don't see how that could ever be turned into a coherent definition. A "credit card purchase" likely involves a dozen distinct parties with their own individual role and view of the event.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

#68
post #14

Interesting in a technological sense, but what problem it solves isn’t obvious to me. It lets me granularly authorize first party access what data I have in my pod, but there can’t be any technical guarantees with regards to illegitimate sharing or otherwise copying (many might at least cache, for instance) – nor about what is collected and shared outside this system. I keep seeing data-hubs and identity-providers to…

It's partially related the webmail-vs-IMAP problem: direct access and control over your data.

An example: There is a pending suit that will ultimately be settled with an insurance company by the courts. Crucial to the case is data collected by a mobile app that helps establish some relevant facts. The incident in question was >1 year ago, and we're going to move forward with the case this week (originally planned for last spring but put off due to COVID). Yesterday, I logged in to the site associated with the app, and it threw up a screen that cannot be dismissed, in the style of "please take care of before you can proceed". This is an account which is nowadays dormant, and there is in fact no way to take care of these issues. I dug out my old phone in an attempt to access the records in-app and take screenshots for the benefit of the court. The app itself had had an update released, and the records are now inaccessible, because the old version of the app is treated as an obsolete client. Fortunately, I'd already earlier exported all the data I could readily get my hands on—so the only thing I'm giving up are those screenshots that I determined in a last-minute decision would be helpful as supplemental resources—but this could have been a problem for someone who's never heard the phrase "move fast and break things" and who took it on faith that all this stuff wouldn't just disappear underneath their nose for seemingly no good reason.

If we transition to a world where apps are always writing to (and pulling from) data stores that are under your control, then this would be a total non-issue, even for people less paranoid/guarded than I was. The truth is that there are social hurdles, but there are technological hurdles, too, and dealing with the technological part is a precondition to society being able to be effective in doing its part. People can't solve problems with solutions that don't exist.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what exactly would they have to add to HTML?

They don't really have to add anything to HTML. I just put it that way to express the idea of the "Like" button being a page element available anywhere on the web, rather than only inside a walled garden. What is really required is a database protocol for tracking Likes, or "a client/server API for creating, updating, and deleting content, as well as a federated server-to-server API for delivering notifications and c…

LDN (Linked Data Notifications) and the work that Hypothes.is is doing on annotations/commenting should also not be overlooked.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee wants to put people in control of their personal data

#70

This is a bit of a tangent, but I think there's a market for a "self-tracker" data hub of sorts. My half-baked idea is that it'd run locally and ingest my activity of all sorts -- privately, securely, individually -- to help inform my personal knowledge base. Along the lines of Readwise but broader and deeper, and with analytics....

Check out Brad Fitzpatrick's Perkeep/Camlistore.
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