Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 179 posts

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#61

Post by celdon25 »

fpgaminer wrote: post #22
mmmBacon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

Comparing cancel culture to China's social credit system is ... not a great choice, in my opinion. Regardless, I've had this theory about cancel culture. I don't necessarily agree with cancel culture, for the aforementioned problem of it being mob social justice. But it seems to me like it has arisen out of a failure by the real justice system. Issues like sexism in particular, which affect half of the population, ha…

> Regardless, I've had this theory about cancel culture. I don't necessarily agree with cancel culture, for the aforementioned problem of it being mob social justice. But it seems to me like it has arisen out of a failure by the real justice system.

> In other words, I don't see value in deriding cancel culture.

This is apologism, and starting such an argument with "I don't agree with this but..." is just a way to trick a few more people into taking your ideas seriously enough to read to the end of the paragraph.

And terrorists, really? You could use your same EXACT logic, in fact even more justifiably, as a defense for what happened at the U.S. Capital.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#62

Post by inglor_cz »

fpgaminer wrote: post #22
mmmBacon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

Comparing cancel culture to China's social credit system is ... not a great choice, in my opinion. Regardless, I've had this theory about cancel culture. I don't necessarily agree with cancel culture, for the aforementioned problem of it being mob social justice. But it seems to me like it has arisen out of a failure by the real justice system. Issues like sexism in particular, which affect half of the population, ha…

"So is it really any surprise that society has collectively taken matters into their owns hands?"

It is not the society. The virtual mobs that hunt people online, even though looking massive (1:N is scary even for N==100), are absolutely tiny when compared to the society as a whole.

And as for the reasons, every mob in history, including the ones that did absolutely horrible things (such as pogroms), had some reasoning as to why their activity is virtuous and noble. And putative inefficiency or corruption of the legal system was one of them. Check up on history of lynching - that was done because the legal system was perceived to be "soft".

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#63

Post by inglor_cz »

jackson1442 wrote: post #35
mmmBacon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

In reality, cancel culture is just the free market at work and has always felt, to me, like a narrative peddled by the powerful to allow themselves to not be held accountable for their actions. If I don't want to buy a Musk-mobile because I don't agree with Musk on issues like racism[0] or don't like how he treats his employees[1], I am allowed to act on it. I am also allowed to share these thoughts with people on ap…

"If you want to post racist/sexist/homophobic things on your public Twitter, so be it, but don't be surprised when someone finds it."

So, what is going to be the kiss of death in 2050? Do you know in advance? How many of your contemporary comments are going to run afoul of the standard of 2050 and will you remember to delete them all, including from Internet archive/wayback sites, in 2049?

Remember, a senior manager at Boeing was forced to step down 33 years after he wrote an offending article. The article was published before WWW even existed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/business/boeing-resignati...

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#64

Post by remarkEon »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #50
eplanit wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but what's frightening now is that the mob/SJWs are aligned (mostly) with the new administration, whose party has swept up all power in the government.

I'm not sure how one would come to that conclusion. Biden is regarded as a centrist, e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/19/us/politics/biden-cabinet... or https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-08-12/harris-bid... , so there's no love lost between his administration and the progressives. They might get a few things they want but Biden and the mainstream Democrats are probably going to keep their distance for t…

Joe Biden is 78. He’s not firing on all cylinders anymore. He leads a party that has attempted, haphazardly, to deal with a growing and increasingly powerful left wing cultural phenomenon that seeks to use the infrastructure of government to change how society operates. You may be right, but it’s just a bet that the mainstream democrats manage to put a lid on these more extreme elements.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#65

Post by remarkEon »

walls wrote: post #54
jonas21 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, why do you feel like you're supposed to be supportive of the use of facial recognition in this case?

Identifying terrorists is a positive outcome.

This statement in the abstract is correct. The context in which it’s applied ... well I’m sure many actually believe Trump supporters are “literally” terrorists.

This technology was of course also used to identify those laying siege to various federal buildings over the summer, but I guess it’s okay now. This is to say that the context in which this technology is used obviously matters a lot and is directly related to who holds the reigns of cultural power. Yay.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#66

Post by uniqueid »

rychco wrote: post #4

I realize that this is one of those situations where I'm supposed to be supportive of the use of facial recognition, but I'm still uncomfortable. Facial recognition seems like an all or nothing deal to me, and even after the capitol has been raided... I still opt for 'nothing'.

  one of those situations where I'm supposed to be 
  supportive of the use of facial recognition
No, it's not. This is the Hoan Ton-That supposedly protecting us from the crazies...

  "Founder Hoan Ton-That’s has links to the far-right movement that move right past suspicious into obvious, according to HuffPo. He reportedly attended a 2016 dinner with white supremacist Richard Spencer and organised by alt-right financier Jeff Giesea, an associate of Palantir founder and Trump-supporting billionaire Peter Thiel. (Thiel secretly bankrolled a lawsuit that bankrupted Gizmodo’s former parent company, Gawker Media.) Ton-That was also a member of a Slack channel run by professional troll Chuck Johnson for his now-defunct WeSearchr, a crowdfunding platform primarily used by white supremacists; that channel included people like the webmaster of neo-Nazi site Daily Stormer, Andrew Auernheimer, and conspiracy theorist Mike Cernovich"
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/04/creepy-face-recognition-f...

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#67

Post by renewiltord »

Facial Recognition Tech is obviously good if used by competent people:

Narrows the number of haystacks to search for needle => Reduced resources required for successful search => More crimes prosecuted.

Problem occurs when:

* Users of FRT assume all in haystack are needles

* Crimes on book must not be universally prosecuted

The first part can't be helped. US Police, like most US government jobs, is a rest-and-take-it-easy job. In aggregate, unexceptional people doing an unexceptional job. The second part is because people want other people prosecuted but not themselves.

I'm in second category myself. For instance, I am quite capable of using all sorts of drugs and maintaining a productive life. Other people are not. So it's important to prosecute other people and not to prosecute me.

Therefore, for these two reasons, I don't want FRT to be used universally. I want to preserve inequitable outcomes in policing because society is stronger with inequitable outcomes - permits good life for high percentile individuals and constrains operations for low percentile individuals. Demarcating crime from uncrime is Sorites paradox.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#68

Post by uniqueid »

walls wrote: post #54
jonas21 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, why do you feel like you're supposed to be supportive of the use of facial recognition in this case?

Identifying terrorists is a positive outcome.

Is this technology going to identify anyone Twitter won't? I mean, correctly identify because it'll probably belch up a lot of false positives, too.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#69

Post by chordalkeyboard »

renewiltord wrote: post #67

Facial Recognition Tech is obviously good if used by competent people: Narrows the number of haystacks to search for needle => Reduced resources required for successful search => More crimes prosecuted. Problem occurs when: * Users of FRT assume all in haystack are needles * Crimes on book must not be universally prosecuted The first part can't be helped. US Police, like most US government jobs, is a rest-and-take-it…

> I want to preserve inequitable outcomes in policing because society is stronger with inequitable outcomes - permits good life for high percentile individuals and constrains operations for low percentile individuals.

Thanks for being clear about your perspective. Do you think there's potential for abuse with different rulesets for different people?

> Demarcating crime from uncrime is Sorites paradox.

I disagree. The measure of a crime is subjective and objective. Subjectively, the victim notices they have been wronged. Objectively, there is a claim by a plaintiff against a defendant. A claim either exists or it does not, there is no sorites.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#70

Post by fpgaminer »

celdon25 wrote: post #61
fpgaminer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing cancel culture to China's social credit system is ... not a great choice, in my opinion. Regardless, I've had this theory about cancel culture. I don't necessarily agree with cancel culture, for the aforementioned problem of it being mob social justice. But it seems to me like it has arisen out of a failure by the real justice system. Issues like sexism in particular, which affect half of the population, ha…

> Regardless, I've had this theory about cancel culture. I don't necessarily agree with cancel culture, for the aforementioned problem of it being mob social justice. But it seems to me like it has arisen out of a failure by the real justice system. > In other words, I don't see value in deriding cancel culture. This is apologism, and starting such an argument with "I don't agree with this but..." is just a way to tr…

> And terrorists, really?

I use the word terrorist because _many_ of the people involved in the group brought guns and bombs, were prepared to take hostages, and voiced their intent to murder members of the government. For example:

https://nbc-2.com/news/national-world/2021/01/08/police-foun...

Additionally a large noose and cross were erected at the scene. The former is a symbol of violent white supremacy in the United States, and the latter is both a religious symbol and a frequently used symbol of an existing terrorist organization, the KKK. Some of those involved were self-professed followers of a known conspiracy cult (QAnon). Also at least one speech during the event quoted Hitler.

It's hard not to use the word "terrorism" to describe what happened that day, given the breadth of violence, both implied and actual, and the wide associations with cults, terrorist organizations, religious organizations, and despotic figures. All of those things are hallmarks of past terrorist acts both within and outside of the United States.

Not three months ago another event occurred, which Wikipedia describes as a "domestic terror plot": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_pl...

I see little difference between that, a group of individuals plotting to kidnap and murder a government official, and the events at the Capitol which involved groups plotting to kidnap and murder government officials.

> is just a way to trick a few more people into taking your ideas seriously enough to read to the end of the paragraph.

That was certainly not my intent, and I don't believe your comment addresses the best possible version of my argument.

Post reply on HN