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Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

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Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#61

Post by webmobdev »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #45
orange_tee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Describing driving assist as "beta FSD" is already grossly misleading, and still my point stands, either they were mislead or they were suicidal.

I was highly skeptical of these systems too: for normal freeway driving, Tesla’s systems are much better than I expected them to be. There’s no way I would be comfortable enough to sleep in my car, as a programmer, but I could imagine someone getting overconfident. This has always been a major risk with semi-automated systems: I believe airplanes dialed back the functionality of autopilots to prevent pilot complacenc…

Automated flying reminded me of this incident in India - some pilots used to cover the windows of their cockpit with newspapers after take off, presumably to have a short nap!

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/26/business/global/26airindi...

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#62

Post by aaaxyz »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #45
orange_tee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Describing driving assist as "beta FSD" is already grossly misleading, and still my point stands, either they were mislead or they were suicidal.

I was highly skeptical of these systems too: for normal freeway driving, Tesla’s systems are much better than I expected them to be. There’s no way I would be comfortable enough to sleep in my car, as a programmer, but I could imagine someone getting overconfident. This has always been a major risk with semi-automated systems: I believe airplanes dialed back the functionality of autopilots to prevent pilot complacenc…

>airplanes dialed back the functionality of autopilots to prevent pilot complacency.

Or maybe because the potential for disaster is too great, like the 737 max attempting to nosedive into the ocean because of a single sensor failure.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#63

Post by c22 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #48
Cro_on wrote: post #11

I find it a little concerning that the car is allowed to drive in autopilot with the seats reclined. I thought there were warnings for taking your hands off the steering wheel? I suppose they can be ignored. But full recline is a bit OTT.

A car is not your mother. It has no obligation to prevent you from speeding or driving the wrong way down a one way street or otherwise being an idiot. And it shouldn't try, because sometimes the car has an inaccurate map or doesn't know that something unusual is happening or the sensor is broken etc.

When I'm driving I get to decide how loud the radio is or whether all the windows are down, not my passengers. If the car is doing the driving I have no problem with the car stipulating its own requirements to ensure a safe trip.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#64

Post by AnthonyMouse »

c22 wrote: post #63
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A car is not your mother. It has no obligation to prevent you from speeding or driving the wrong way down a one way street or otherwise being an idiot. And it shouldn't try, because sometimes the car has an inaccurate map or doesn't know that something unusual is happening or the sensor is broken etc.

When I'm driving I get to decide how loud the radio is or whether all the windows are down, not my passengers. If the car is doing the driving I have no problem with the car stipulating its own requirements to ensure a safe trip.

No. The car isn't a person. It has no awareness of external context. You can't change its mind using evidence or reasoning. The person in the vehicle should always be able to override the car.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#65

Post by tintor »

webmobdev wrote: post #2

> “They are not self-driving systems,” said Supt. Gary Graham of Alberta RCMP Traffic Services. > “These technologies assist drivers, but do not replace them,” said the statement from the federal institution responsible for transportation policies and programs ... > Tesla’s website states, “All new Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features today, and full self-driving cap…

Even with certification, person behind the wheel will still be responsible (as long as he / she has control over vehicle). Once vehicles ship without steering wheels / pedals, that will not be the case anymore.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#67

Post by lmilcin »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #48
Cro_on wrote: post #11

I find it a little concerning that the car is allowed to drive in autopilot with the seats reclined. I thought there were warnings for taking your hands off the steering wheel? I suppose they can be ignored. But full recline is a bit OTT.

A car is not your mother. It has no obligation to prevent you from speeding or driving the wrong way down a one way street or otherwise being an idiot. And it shouldn't try, because sometimes the car has an inaccurate map or doesn't know that something unusual is happening or the sensor is broken etc.

Very much appreciated.

People need to understand THEY are responsible for what they are doing, not the companies for not preventing them doing stupid things.

"A car is not your mother"

I am definitely going to use it:)

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#68

Post by lmilcin »

c22 wrote: post #63
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A car is not your mother. It has no obligation to prevent you from speeding or driving the wrong way down a one way street or otherwise being an idiot. And it shouldn't try, because sometimes the car has an inaccurate map or doesn't know that something unusual is happening or the sensor is broken etc.

When I'm driving I get to decide how loud the radio is or whether all the windows are down, not my passengers. If the car is doing the driving I have no problem with the car stipulating its own requirements to ensure a safe trip.

The whole point is that the car is NOT doing the driving the same way cruise control is not doing the driving either. It is not fully, self driving car, yet. It can automate some portion of the driving task, just as cruise control can, but the limits of operation, as stated by the producer, do not allow it to control the car unattended.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#69

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

aaaxyz wrote: post #62
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was highly skeptical of these systems too: for normal freeway driving, Tesla’s systems are much better than I expected them to be. There’s no way I would be comfortable enough to sleep in my car, as a programmer, but I could imagine someone getting overconfident. This has always been a major risk with semi-automated systems: I believe airplanes dialed back the functionality of autopilots to prevent pilot complacenc…

>airplanes dialed back the functionality of autopilots to prevent pilot complacency. Or maybe because the potential for disaster is too great, like the 737 max attempting to nosedive into the ocean because of a single sensor failure.

This is a well-known issue: when automation gets good enough that the human in the loop starts to get bored, it can be more dangerous than either “all human” or “all computer”

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#70

Post by alexanderdmitri »

camjohnson26 wrote: post #55
tehlike wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think it's regulation issue. I say it's because it's overtrust for an almost working system. If something gets good enough you will rely on it more and more. It will work, until it doesn't.

And the systems fail in ways that a human wouldn’t which makes it more dangerous. Teslas often “shadow brake” when driving under overpasses or overhead signs because the radar system gets confused.

This is what gets me. A big part driving safety is defensive, ie monitoring the other drivers around you. It's relatively easy to pick out distracted, erratic or risk-taking drivers from a handful of simple queues. Very much not the case with software driven autopilot routines from an increasing number of vendors. So accidents may go down where humans are at fault, but I find it more unsettling overall, as I have less control to take acceptable safety precautions.
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