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Telegram's getting ads

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Re: Telegram's getting ads

#61

Post by wruza »

rglullis wrote: post #31
bilal4hmed wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not a lazy cop out. There is a reason why Telegram, WhatsApp, iMessage have more users - they are simple to use for an audience that is not tech savvy. Matrix has a long way to go before getting people to join is "easy". Theyve done great work over this year to get that done, but its far from perfect. Fight the good fight but dont forget what makes an app attract users. Even now on matrix, when you sign up, matri…

I've got a good part of my family who is not tech savvy on matrix (not their server, but actual accounts on communick.com homeserver), nothing that a 10 minute walk-through didn't solve. It on us the tech savvy to identify these issues, educate and help them overcome them, and ideally contribute for these issues to be solved in the first place. This gives us progress and freedom. Saying "matrix is hard/incomplete, le…

>It on us the tech savvy to identify these issues, educate and help them overcome them, and ideally contribute for these issues to be solved in the first place.

No, it’s on IM app developers. And not ideally, but today. Nobody is buying into tomorrow’s promises, the quicker signal/matrix will understand it, the better for everyone. Tell them.

Re: Telegram's getting ads

#62

Post by jakear »

nvrspyx wrote: post #60
jakear wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pleased to see ads that show me well designed products that solve problems I’ve been experiencing, especially if I don’t know I’ve been experiencing them. For instance, Instagram’s targeting has realized that I like outdoorsy products, and even though I don’t buy the products, sometimes they inspire me to find a way to recreate the item myself. In my opinion your POV is very dismissive of all the good work produc…

You could just look up "outdoorsy" products. Why should everyone else have to suffer through ads and give up privacy just because a handful of people like them? The whole advertising industry is now predicated on gaming people's attention, wants, and financial vulnerabilities. I also don't see how not wanting to see ads is dismissive of product design foundries. Just because you've designed a good product does not me…

You don’t have to suffer though them! All you have to do is not use the app or provide the developer some other means of compensation. Why should all users have to pay out their cold hard cash to use a service just because a handful of people don’t like ads?

And the whole point is they show me things I don’t know I wanted, so a search doesn’t solve the problem — I’d only search if I knew I wanted something.

Re: Telegram's getting ads

#63

Post by thekyle »

erikbye wrote: post #58
bilal4hmed wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason primarily is that they have rolled their own crypto, which based on a lot of reading and comments from other experts suggests is the wrong thing to do. To this end I havent seen a good explanation from Telegram as to why they have taken this route given there are so many proven & battle tested methods and algorithms. "We havent been hacked yet" doesnt seem good enough for me. 1:1 messages aren't e2e by def…

> The reason primarily is that they have rolled their own crypto, which based on a lot of reading and comments from other experts suggests is the wrong thing to do Someone has to roll crypto. Did Signal roll their own?

I believe Signal did create their own crypto (which is also used now by apps like WhatsApp). The difference is that Signal's crypto was created by a trained cryptographer and seems to be generally respected in the cryptography community while Telegrams is not.

Re: Telegram's getting ads

#64

Post by rglullis »

dividedbyzero wrote: post #47
rglullis wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Look, mom/dad/wife/brother/friends, I know that WhatsApp is easier and everyone else is using it and it you already know it and it is super convenient. But I don't want to use it anymore for a bunch of different reasons. If you want to talk to me , I can help you get set up on this app and we can talk. I know it sounds like a pain in the ass, but I am willing to help you with whatever issue you have. Just please don…

100% conversion rate with those you can apply sufficient pressure on, perhaps. Who'd want to lose contact with a son, brother, father over something like that? But it's a hassle, even if you don't see it that way. Over the years I myself have been converted to Signal, Telegram (encrypted chats), Threema, some kind of encrypted IRC and OTR on at least two other messengers, Google Wave, Google Talk, Viber, ... can't re…

Of course it is a hassle! I never claimed otherwise. But it is a hassle worth fighting for and this is what I try to show when I am helping them getting started with something else.

> If some people categorically don't value other people who don't use their preferred app, that totally weirds me out.

Who said anything about judging/not valuing other people by their preferred app? I am not claiming exclusivity. I still have WhatsApp on my phone for contacts and groups who are not close enough to me for me to ask them to use a different app.

The point I am trying to make is that if everyone (including privacy-sensitive, tech-savvy people) keep this apathy in regards to their digital hygiene, then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and there is no way we will ever get out of this mess. I presume anyone on Hacker News can and know how to do better, and we should be the ones in the front lines fighting for more open systems instead of passively waiting for some magical benevolent entity to save us from Big Tech.

Re: Telegram's getting ads

#65

Post by rglullis »

wruza wrote: post #61
rglullis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got a good part of my family who is not tech savvy on matrix (not their server, but actual accounts on communick.com homeserver), nothing that a 10 minute walk-through didn't solve. It on us the tech savvy to identify these issues, educate and help them overcome them, and ideally contribute for these issues to be solved in the first place. This gives us progress and freedom. Saying "matrix is hard/incomplete, le…

>It on us the tech savvy to identify these issues, educate and help them overcome them, and ideally contribute for these issues to be solved in the first place. No, it’s on IM app developers. And not ideally, but today. Nobody is buying into tomorrow’s promises, the quicker signal/matrix will understand it, the better for everyone. Tell them .

I think you are arguing with a strawman. Signal is as centralized as Telegram and moxie has already stated that he does not care about open or federated systems because of the usability trade-off required.

My argument is that the inferior usability is not an intrinsic issue of federated systems, just circunstancial. Being closed/centralized on the other hand, is an intrinsic property of all major platforms, and any of these major platforms will screw its users whenever they have enough lock-in.

So, I am not saying simply that open is good and closed is bad. What I am saying is that open should be preferred and promoted.

And no, people working on open systems should not just sit on their asses and say "you have no other choice, so you will have to take whatever we do". People working on Matrix already have quite a lot of work cut out for them and I am painfully aware of the points were it can improve. The thing is I am also aware of how much improvement has happened already, while there is absolutely zero proprietary platform that opened up itself for public benefit.

Re: Telegram's getting ads

#66

Post by karlmcguire »

thekyle wrote: post #63
erikbye wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason primarily is that they have rolled their own crypto, which based on a lot of reading and comments from other experts suggests is the wrong thing to do Someone has to roll crypto. Did Signal roll their own?

I believe Signal did create their own crypto (which is also used now by apps like WhatsApp). The difference is that Signal's crypto was created by a trained cryptographer and seems to be generally respected in the cryptography community while Telegrams is not.

It's not clear who made Telegram's crypto but it was probably Nikolai Durov who is a genius mathematician and engineer, so it's not like it's some guy in a garage.

Re: Telegram's getting ads

#67

Post by karlmcguire »

____________g wrote: post #8

I don't understand how Telegram has managed to stay free for 8 (?) years until now. Was there ever a catch? Since the start it has continuously improved to become a feature-packed product that's easy to use, with a pleasant UI.

The most interesting thing about Telegram to me is the development team: about 10 very good engineers who travel with Pavel and work from hotels.

Re: Telegram's getting ads

#68

Post by karlmcguire »

drran wrote: post #45
jlelse wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They (at least it's me) are possibly meaning the excellent multi-device use. I can easilly use Telegram on like 10 different devices, all chats are in sync.

This also means that it's much easier to spy on someone on Telegram: just create a fake device with telegram, then login the user into it using a phone with fake identity. Easy-peasy for a (Russian) government.

Any time someone logs into your account you immediately get a notification on all devices with the IP address the attempt originated from.

Re: Telegram's getting ads

#69

Post by Thorncorona »

ddevault wrote: post #48
bilal4hmed wrote: post #3

While Im not a fan of telegrams encryption, the title is a bit misleading. It makes it seem as if ALL of telegram is getting ads. if you go to the founders post https://t.me/durov/142 It clearly says ads will be for the 1:many public community channels and not the private 1:1 and group chats. Other ways of funding will be premium services for businesses and premium stickers. Sounds reasonable to me

Ads are never, ever reasonable. Never let other companies brain hack your users. It's unethical and an awful UX. No one is ever pleased to see an ad. It's not like we can't do instant messaging without ads. I have used IRC every day for the past 15 years. Not every project needs a business model to work and not every approach is justified because the business needs it.

What is your point? Users are offered a free and paid version.

Someone will always have to foot the bill, and telegram has been doing so for free for the last 8 years.

Re: Telegram's getting ads

#70

Post by ffpip »

bilal4hmed wrote: post #42
hertzrat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you dislike about telegrams encryption? The only private messaging app Im really familiar with signal

The reason primarily is that they have rolled their own crypto, which based on a lot of reading and comments from other experts suggests is the wrong thing to do. To this end I havent seen a good explanation from Telegram as to why they have taken this route given there are so many proven & battle tested methods and algorithms. "We havent been hacked yet" doesnt seem good enough for me. 1:1 messages aren't e2e by def…

> To this end I havent seen a good explanation from Telegram as to why they have taken this route given ..

They say it is for speed. Looking at how fast Telegram is, I can say it worked for them. It is the most reliable app that works on slow internet for me.

https://core.telegram.org/techfaq#q-why-did-you-go-for-a-cus...

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