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Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

aeon.co

61–70 of 102 posts

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#61
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe! Deweaponized! HAH! Compare the murder rates of Detroit MI, Cheyenne WY, London, and Shanghai, and then tell me which city has a weapon problem and which city has a culture problem, or both!

Murder rates (per 100k people): Detroit: 38.8 (2018); Cheyenne: 3.1 (2018); London: 1.84 (2019); China: 1.0 (2011); Not sure where you are going with this, but I'd say the answer is Detroit??

"Europeans" (everyone from Ireland to Moldova?) are constantly talking about how safe their countries are, but the reality is that in America, not everywhere is Detroit or Baltimore. You guys are literally falling victim to fake news.

The average small town will have a maximum of 1 or 2 murders per year. Cheyenne has only 60,000 people.

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#62
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't true. Shootings are very, very rare. And they are concentrated in certain types of places (e.g., poor urban ghetto) such that the parts of the country that aren't these places have vanishingly small probabilities of being hurt by a shooting. Gun murders in the U.S. are a very low percentage of deaths (0.39%) and preventable deaths (~1.1%, there's some disagreement about what's "preventable"). That's 0.0036…

> And they are concentrated in certain types of places (e.g., poor urban ghetto) such that the parts of the country that aren't these places have vanishingly small probabilities of being hurt by a shooting. I said "many places" not "all places". Indeed, shootings are concentrated to a few areas with high crime rates. Doesn't mean that people living in those areas don't have to watch out. I replied to an anecdote abou…

> I said "many places" not "all places"... Doesn't mean that people living in those areas don't have to watch out.

I agree that there is some non-zero number of people in the U.S. who have to watch out for gun murder. The point I'm trying to make is that they make up a really small proportion of the population. Anecdotes are fun.

> As for gun murders being a rare death cause, indeed if you average over all age ranges they are. However, for younger people they are a major concern. CDC data [0] lists homicides in the top 4 reasons for death for age groups from 1 until 35. Which weapons are used for these homicides? A different statistic tells us most times it's guns [1].

You're right that, among untimely deaths, gun murders move up the ranking if you're looking at young people. But this misses the main thing, which is that untimely deaths of any kind are super rare among young people, even rarer than overall. Why should we care if gun murders make up 50% of untimely deaths among young people if the likelihood of untimely death is sufficiently low? Your line of reasoning seems to indicate a 10% chance of untimely death with 1 percentage point of that being gun murder is preferable to a 1% chance of untimely death with 0.5 percentage points of that being gun murder.

As an aside, thinking about this (and many other things) in terms of ordinal rankings will often lead you down the wrong path. "Top four reasons" tells us nothing at all. If there are 5,000 categories constructed and they are roughly evenly distributed, "top four" tells us nothing. If 99% of the probability mass is in #1, "top four" tells us nothing. It's like the classic "The U.S. is [embarassingly] #44 in math achievement". This means nothing if the top 80 countries are tightly clustered around 98 math achievement points.

> But preventing gun deaths is important too. My point is that it isn't important. There are much, much bigger fish to fry from a public health perspective. The marginal benefit of throwing one dollar at "gun violence" is << the marginal benefit of throwing that same buck at something like trying to get construction workers to wear proper safety harnesses.

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#63
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder rates (per 100k people): Detroit: 38.8 (2018); Cheyenne: 3.1 (2018); London: 1.84 (2019); China: 1.0 (2011); Not sure where you are going with this, but I'd say the answer is Detroit??

I’m confused by this comment too. Why Detroit? It has the third highest rate of any US city in 2017. Was that the point? For comparison the US national rate in 2019 was 5 and NYC (more comparable to London and Shanghai) has a rate of 2.8. Yeah, look ... I like the 2A too and don’t think guns cause higher murder rates. But there is no data to support the narrative that Europe and other countries are more dangerous in…

NYC is smoothed out by a population of millions of people. Take a look at DC... Take a look at the average small American town. Most have 0 murders, or 1 or 2. Not everywhere is like Chicago and Detroit with hundreds of murders a year

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#64
post #31
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once described the caste system as “racism invented by people who look alike” and my girlfriend from Madya Pradesh (Central Indian Province) thought that was very apt. Humans are great, until you let them form groups, once that happens you’ll get tribalism and prejudice almost every time as far as I can tell. Even sports’ fans will beat eachother up sometimes.

I'm increasingly hearing the idea (from Hindu nationalists?) that the caste system was the invention of the British, not anything indigenous. If anyone's in the know, I'd be curious to hear what's broadly accepted among historians nowadays.

What classical Hinduism had was the varna system, where you were a member of a particular varna according your jobs and qualifications (for eg, bhramans were supposed to be learners and teachers of scriptures, analogous to professors and phd's today). And even this varna system was debated and discusses throughout classical Hinduism, as with every other idea in Hinduism was.

But overtime, especially when people of different cultures and languages interact, things can become twisted and lost in incorrect translations, whether through genuine error,any inherent biases of the translator or malicious intent.

And also overtime, cultures can evolve in response or in interactions with outside forces (especially the Islamic and later European invaders over a 1000 year period) that would seek to implement their own hierarchies and systems. Infact, the indigenous Indians were treated as second class citizens in empires established by outside invaders (Jaziya collection is common example of this).

But what generally makes the system as being attributed to the British is due to the Divide and Conquer strategy implemented by the British. Dividing the populace becomes a lot easier if you can mutate or deepen existing lines in the system.

But truthfully, the exact lineage is very hard to find, especially for a culture that is not only 5000+ years old but has also been interacting with and assimilating just about every other global culture during that 5000 years period (Indians have been interacting with everyone from Chinese, SE Asians, Romans, Greeks, Persians, Mesopotomians, Africans, Arabs, Ancient Egyptians, Turkic Nomads, etc)

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#65
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH in many places in the US you still have regular shootings, and bullets also do get into homes. Residential homes are also built way more crappily now than the log cabins of old times. So nothing much changed about the shooting part. Compare it to Europe which has deweaponized itself.

Compare it to what? People are going to people. Just because your continent doesn't have the same gun laws as the US doesn't mean there's any less crime - gun related or otherwise. There are quite a few Europeans that wish they had guns so they weren't stabbed, dashed with acid, or beheaded.

acids and beheadings? these happened a few times in the last decade on the entire continent

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#66
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As is still so often the case when white, powerful men felt threatened, they banded together to create, and separate, the other . What, this is a behavior specific to white, powerful men? What went down in and around Lexington and Concord was a more serious crime than murder, it was an act of rebellion. The author appears committed to a particular affect which seems out of context with the history he presents.

It’s not. In Bangladesh, we precisely identify the town or village ethnic Bangladeshis come from, but have a single word to refer to all non-Bangladeshis (“bideshi,” meaning “foreigner”). The article reads like the author wrote it, and then sprinkled in “white men” randomly wherever it fit grammatically. Maybe it helped get the thing published.

Inciting civil unrest for clicks, now that's revolutionary.

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#67
post #48
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that label typically applied to anyone not an ethnic Bangladeshi, or to people who aren't citizens of Bangladesh? E.g. if there's a Bangladeshi in India, would they be bideshi? Conversely, if there's someone who moved to Bangladesh from Pakistan but are current citizens, do they get that label? (this is to satisfy my own curiosity about identity formation on the subcontinent, not accidentally stumbling on some hot…

In my experience it is applied to people who are not ethnically Bangladeshi, or who are but were not raised in Bangladesh. E.g. https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2020/01/15/speaking-the-langu... > In Bengali, the term bideshi is used to describe a foreigner. The literal translation is "without land." This past summer, during six weeks conducting research on a global health project in Bangladesh, I heard the term often -…

> Citizenship isn’t particularly meaningful in Bangladesh. You can’t become Bangladeshi by acquiring citizenship.

This is also true of most European countries, FWIW.

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Murder of the British is a strange take on the events of Lexington and Concord. The outbreak of the American Revolution in 1775 can fairly be called an act of violence. The American colonies in the early days of the conflict were pretty evenly split between loyalists and revolutionaries. The latter ultimately won the day in large part by burning down loyalists’ houses or tarring and feathering them, sending some of…

Nobody is doubting it was an act of violence. The oddity is that they're calling it an act of murder as opposed to an act of war. Murder sounds like a bunch of criminals, which is a really one sided take. The british soldiers were there to destroy colonial military supplies. It may be technically correct, but you don't hear about how the GIs murdered a bunch of Nazis on the beaches of Normandy or whatever other war s…

I'm not a historian but isn't there some ambiguity here? If war hadn't already been declared by the relevant governments, you can't be killing in the name of war.

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#69

Incidentally, if you think all this moralistic hand-wringing was centuries ago, famed SF nightclub DNA Lounge was in 2009 charged with, and I quote, "running a disorderly house injurious to the public welfare and morals". https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2009/02/13.html (Note: jwz doesn't like HN referrers, so c&p into a separate tab)

> famed SF nightclub DNA Lounge For those not familiar with the DNA Lounge story: - jwz was an early programmer at Netscape who made several million - he wanted to get into entertainment, but when you buy a bar in SF, it comes without any permits, so you essentially have to rebuild and re-permit everything - the SF Police doesn't want to bother policing bars, so the Chief fights you tooth and nail at every city counc…

> but when you buy a bar in SF, it comes without any permits, so you essentially have to rebuild and re-permit everything

I remain forever amazed that SF manages to retain the aura of coolness, while being anything but.

Re: Violent, lively and brash, taverns were everywhere in early colonial America

#70
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH in many places in the US you still have regular shootings, and bullets also do get into homes. Residential homes are also built way more crappily now than the log cabins of old times. So nothing much changed about the shooting part. Compare it to Europe which has deweaponized itself.

This isn't true. Shootings are very, very rare. And they are concentrated in certain types of places (e.g., poor urban ghetto) such that the parts of the country that aren't these places have vanishingly small probabilities of being hurt by a shooting. Gun murders in the U.S. are a very low percentage of deaths (0.39%) and preventable deaths (~1.1%, there's some disagreement about what's "preventable"). That's 0.0036…

Aren't rural areas also the ones with more murders per capita and more shooting deaths, mostly due to large prevalence of guns and bad economic situation?

As in, the urban ghetto is often stated, but rural parts do come up in stats quite a lot too.

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