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Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

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Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#61

Post by jononor »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #15
atemerev wrote: post #7

Sadly, no. The bureaucracy of opening and running a business here is staggering (and the minimum starting capital for opening an analog of LLC is more than $20,000, and more than $100,000 for a corporation). Perhaps you have heard that there are few taxes in Switzerland; this is not true (and also a lot of obligatory social security payments for the each employee which are almost impossible to manage without a dedica…

Starting a GmbH theoretically requires 25.000 € in Germany, but you only have to pay in half of that in the beginning. I think in Switzerland it's similar? If you don't want to invest 5-10 T€ to start a company you can look into Estland's eResidency programme, which enables you to start a limited liability company there, giving you access to the EEA market as well.

In Germany one can start an Ug and convert to a GmbH later. There is bureaucracy though, almost everything has to be done at a notary, in person. And they will expect you to speak German. Have done it as a non-German speaker though (pre Corona). In terms of the difficulties one has running ones own company succesfully, it does not rank high. But it is easy to complain about I guess.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#62

Post by proxyrax »

I wish.

I hold a citizenship in an EU country (Lithuania) and would love to spend some time working in Europe closer to family. Swiss/EU bilateral agreements would allow me to work there easily, but every time I do some research it seems the (lack of) bureaucracy, compensation, and culture of innovation just pales in comparison to US tech hubs.

Here in the US, I can spin up an LLC by clicking a few buttons on one of the dozen or so online incorporation services for under $100. Cheaper if I wanted to do it myself. I can spin up little side-projects left and right. My day job is pretty run-of-the-mill for US tech standards, but pays more than I could ever dream of in anywhere in Europe (even if I take into account the value of better social services).

At this rate, I don't see any sufficiently impactful changes happening in Europe to make it meaningfully competitive, but I really hope it does.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#63

Post by jakub_g »

eternalban wrote: post #47
mkl95 wrote: post #18

Trust me, there is no such thing as a European Silicon Valley, and there won't be one any time soon.

The French have a shot at this, if there is political will in Paris. Closest thing to SV in France is Toulouse: a major university; defense and related tech industries; lots of competent world class engineers; and an attractive locale.

Also Sophia Antipolis [1] used to be described as "European SV" but mostly in historical + quality of life contexts. The biggest employer being fat and slow corporate-y Amadeus, it's nowhere near to the startup scene of real SV.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_Antipolis

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#64

Post by mkl95 »

Gwypaas wrote: post #43
mkl95 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Swedish friend swears by Norway's job market, but then again Norwegian people may do the opposite.

Better wages in Norway, though a more traditional low tech market focused around resources. They've been trying to diversify for ages but can't comment on the results of that. Haven't heard of any Norwegian Spotify, Mojang, Kings or Klarnas though.

Better wages sums up most of what I've heard from people living in Sweden. They must be staying in Sweden rather than moving to Norway for a good reason though.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#65

Post by triceratops »

langitbiru wrote: post #44
somedude895 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. Apparently it's very hard to get funding for novel ideas in Switzerland. And yes, risk aversion is a big part of Swiss culture, an example of which being that Swiss are some of the most over-insured people, and savings rates also regularly top the charts. A fairly egalitarian society with a high standard of living makes for a people that doesn't like or "have to" take risks

And there is a quote: "In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack o…

> Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there

Not really. My bet is on the abundance of capital (hello global reserve currency) combined with excellent universities and a cultural willingness to take risks and do bold things. People who need a safety net, such as food stamps or housing assistance, are rarely the people who start big companies. They're usually too caught up in just trying to survive day-to-day.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#66

Post by corty »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #35
atemerev wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies were not financed by venture capital (except for some cryptocurrency companies, which are popular here indeed). Also, some of the software companies were moved here for tax reasons, but they were founded elsewhere.

That's an interesting claim! Is there a tax efficient way to structure a tech company in Switzerland? Taxation doesn't look very good neither on the personal level (income tax / dividend tax / tax on deemed rental value of your property if you own a house!!!) nor the company one (corporate rate tax, high cost of personnel). They do have some good deductions and a lump sum income tax for foreigners relocating to Switz…

Pick the right canton. There are many, with very diverse tax codes, and in the smaller ones you even get to negotiate a bit (if you are big and important enough). But of course that will mean you have to be out in the sticks.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#67

Post by chrisandchris »

proxyrax wrote: post #62

I wish. I hold a citizenship in an EU country (Lithuania) and would love to spend some time working in Europe closer to family. Swiss/EU bilateral agreements would allow me to work there easily, but every time I do some research it seems the (lack of) bureaucracy, compensation, and culture of innovation just pales in comparison to US tech hubs. Here in the US, I can spin up an LLC by clicking a few buttons on one of…

At least in Switzerland you can somewhere go around with ~20‘000/year in earnings without much bureaucracy at all (not much insurance, easy taxes, ...) and even after that, there‘s no need to register a company. You can work as single-person company longer than you say it‘s a side business. For sure you have to care about insurabce and taxes, but I don‘t see anything wrong with that.

It might be that it‘s different in other countries but from my experience, Switzerland makes it quite easy „for the little man“.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#68

Post by phillc73 »

proxyrax wrote: post #62

I wish. I hold a citizenship in an EU country (Lithuania) and would love to spend some time working in Europe closer to family. Swiss/EU bilateral agreements would allow me to work there easily, but every time I do some research it seems the (lack of) bureaucracy, compensation, and culture of innovation just pales in comparison to US tech hubs. Here in the US, I can spin up an LLC by clicking a few buttons on one of…

The ease of starting a Limited company in Lithuania is really interesting.

I used to start UK Ltd companies really easily, but with them exiting the EU, the best alternative I've found so far is Ireland or Estonia, but both are somewhat expensive. Although not compared to starting a GmbH in Austria or Germany.

I learned through bitter experience that Malta has some yearly auditing requirements, which make everything more expensive than they first appear.

Can you provide some links or info about going the Lithuanian route?

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#69

Post by raverbashing »

There won't be another "Silicon Valley" because the unique conditions of SV didn't happen anywhere else (at least so far).

Which it doesn't mean you can't have competitive or innovative companies in other places. What their differences are w.r.t. SV might be disadvantages but they also might be advantages. (Though the easy financing is one darn good competitive advantage)

But the world (and innovation) is not only startups working on a new web/app thing.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#70

Post by nextos »

jcfrei wrote: post #29
atemerev wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies were not financed by venture capital (except for some cryptocurrency companies, which are popular here indeed). Also, some of the software companies were moved here for tax reasons, but they were founded elsewhere.

Don't know why you are talking in absolutes here. There's quite a bit of venture funding outside of the cryptocurrency space. Crunchbase shows $2B total in funding for Zurich alone ( https://www.crunchbase.com/hub/zurich-startups ) - don't know how that compares internationally but it's definitely something rather than nothing.

Yes, and there's also a great biotech startup & VC ecosystem.
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