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Linus Torvalds on the new MacBook Air

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Re: Linus Torvalds on the new MacBook Air

#61

Honestly, I don't think anyone is holding their breath for the day that corporations like Apple and Microsoft give the world the Linux that they deserve. Imagine if these power brokers didn't exist and a whole generation of children grew up on Linux rather than Mac/PC. Huge opportunity cost for society in my opinion.

What advantages does Linux have for children over macOS? It’s UNIX, with the shell and all the OSS packages you could want. Very few children need to recompile the graphics stack, kernel, or drivers.

Re: Linus Torvalds on the new MacBook Air

#63
post #53

Honestly, I don't think anyone is holding their breath for the day that corporations like Apple and Microsoft give the world the Linux that they deserve. Imagine if these power brokers didn't exist and a whole generation of children grew up on Linux rather than Mac/PC. Huge opportunity cost for society in my opinion.

I was discussing this with someone yesterday. A materials engineering PhD candidate, who took an engineering coding class during undergrad, but found everything so complicated that she never looked back and actually learned how to write a script. She's not alone, and it's frustrating to see the number of otherwise highly-educated people who seem handicapped in certain tasks because corporate vendors like Microsoft, M…

I am in strong agreement with this. I feel like it is selling kids short to not give them exposure to the Linux environment that underlies our modern world.

To me, it really comes down to empowerment of others. If you are not taught how the world works from first principles (in this case the world of computing), then you are forever relegated to live in someone else's world and live within their paradigm of thinking. In this case, the only justification is market capture for these Enterprises, which hasn't materially advanced society and societal issues as far as I can tell.

Re: Linus Torvalds on the new MacBook Air

#64
post #53

Honestly, I don't think anyone is holding their breath for the day that corporations like Apple and Microsoft give the world the Linux that they deserve. Imagine if these power brokers didn't exist and a whole generation of children grew up on Linux rather than Mac/PC. Huge opportunity cost for society in my opinion.

I was discussing this with someone yesterday. A materials engineering PhD candidate, who took an engineering coding class during undergrad, but found everything so complicated that she never looked back and actually learned how to write a script. She's not alone, and it's frustrating to see the number of otherwise highly-educated people who seem handicapped in certain tasks because corporate vendors like Microsoft, M…

> I myself didn't really consider how I could use code to speed up mundane tasks until I was forced to copy files over from an embedded Linux system over bash. The introduction from "open up a terminal, and type these commands in, which does these things" to "now just put those commands in a file called script.sh and type ./script.sh, and it will do the thing automatically" was eye-opening, at 22 years old. Looking back, it's the exact same problem that resulted in a company I used to work for doing 100s of GB of data processing in Excel, because writing Excel macros was more accessible than writing a bash script to append two .csv files.

I mean, Linux specifically isn't really necessary for this. Back in the early-mid 00s, OS X got me into terminal usage and "real" programming via its free (as in beer), full-octane bundled dev tools and included Ruby installation.

In fact, at the point that I got into these things with OS X, I had already tinkered with a Linux variant (Yellow Dog) and had given up before getting too far because I didn't have the knowhow to make the OS as a whole work properly, and worse, the internet resources needed to fill this knowledge gap didn't make themselves obvious.

Re: Linus Torvalds on the new MacBook Air

#66

If Linus wants to have an Arm laptop to run Linux, I wonder why didn’t he consider a Chromebook.

Chromebooks are often a nice, relatively inexpensive and hackable x86 or arm device, but there's nothing that interesting about their hardware other than not so locked down (there's dev mode allowing anything and you can overwrite the firmware even). The new apple arm has fascinatingly good performance, and long battery life and the Air has no fan, so there's a lot to like there.

Re: Linus Torvalds on the new MacBook Air

#67
René Rebe has some thoughts about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NglGEnSJdU

TL;DW (the essence and consequence of that thread): This is not going to happen unless Apple publishes documentation so that drivers can be developed.

ARM laptops are already here though, look at the Pinebook Pro and ARM Chromebooks that are out there. The new Surface Pro X at least has an EFI and the drivers are somewhat there instead of not at all. It would be an order or magnitude less work to get that running Linux properly instead of the M1.

My opinion: I'm not expecting to see usable Linux on M1 devices any time soon. Apple are nicer about this than they are usually however - they want to prove that their new platform can be taken seriously and do general purpose computing - it looks like they lightly hinted at cooperating with Microsoft about Windows on ARM (though it may just be deflection).

They are pretty certainly not going to develop any drivers for anyone else, but I think there's a (low) chance we'll see documentation that will allow others to do so.

Re: Linus Torvalds on the new MacBook Air

#68
post #53

Honestly, I don't think anyone is holding their breath for the day that corporations like Apple and Microsoft give the world the Linux that they deserve. Imagine if these power brokers didn't exist and a whole generation of children grew up on Linux rather than Mac/PC. Huge opportunity cost for society in my opinion.

I was discussing this with someone yesterday. A materials engineering PhD candidate, who took an engineering coding class during undergrad, but found everything so complicated that she never looked back and actually learned how to write a script. She's not alone, and it's frustrating to see the number of otherwise highly-educated people who seem handicapped in certain tasks because corporate vendors like Microsoft, M…

I never understood why Microsoft never pushed VBScript harder, and didn’t include a basic IDE for it. After all every copy of Windows for decades has come with it and it’s very powerful. They do seem to be rectifying that with PowerShell though.

I think it’s unfair hitting the Mac on this front though. Automator is an incredibly easy to use desktop automation tool, and of course you’ve got Bash, Ruby and Python right there just the same as on Linux. They have also invested heavily in work flow automation tooling for iOS.

Re: Linus Torvalds on the new MacBook Air

#69
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was discussing this with someone yesterday. A materials engineering PhD candidate, who took an engineering coding class during undergrad, but found everything so complicated that she never looked back and actually learned how to write a script. She's not alone, and it's frustrating to see the number of otherwise highly-educated people who seem handicapped in certain tasks because corporate vendors like Microsoft, M…

> I myself didn't really consider how I could use code to speed up mundane tasks until I was forced to copy files over from an embedded Linux system over bash. The introduction from "open up a terminal, and type these commands in, which does these things" to "now just put those commands in a file called script.sh and type ./script.sh, and it will do the thing automatically" was eye-opening, at 22 years old. Looking b…

I can agree with this, which is why I added the "(to a lesser degree) Apple" caveat. I think, especially now, it seems they're moving in a less hacker-friendly direction in terms ability to progress from write-a-script to build-you-own-environment, but certainly is better than Windows. I've only heard of Yellow Dog, but for many modern distros, the transition from "flash this file to a USB drive using this program, plug in, and turn the computer on" seems like it should be a much more accessible option (even for people without an Apple budget) than it was even 10 years ago.

Re: Linus Torvalds on the new MacBook Air

#70
post #38
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the reverse engineered Nvidia GPU drivers are any indication, very difficult They're functional for very basic desktop stuff but 3D performance is abysmal

A big reason for the abysmal performance is however that nvidia has intentionally locked down the performance for code that doesn't have the right credentials. We don't know if Apple have done something similar.

I assume you mean reclocking support, it is possible to reclock the older Kepler architecture on open source drivers but it still underperforms

Kepler is anywhere from 2x to 10x faster on the proprietary driver here: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia-n...

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