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You Are the Product (2017)

lrb.co.uk

61–70 of 82 posts

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#61
post #24

I like the update to this from the “Social Dilemma”: ”Your manipulation is the product” . Ad blockers do not protect you from the algorithms that make you more extreme to your side of social or political topic. People are paying and using social media to manipulate your opinion and that do not come just from ads.

I know I've found myself much happier going social media/online dating free.

Social media is very good at making us angry. A debate on starter pokemon can quickly turn into slurs being thrown around. I have a few social circles I remain engaged in via zoom, and pre Covid I was meeting people at alumni events, etc , left and right.

It's not particularly easy to re engage with the real world if your way deep in the rabbit whole of social media. Another way to look at it. Online you become the worst thing you've ever posted , once you identify with that negativity it feeds upon itself. You end up in a death spiral of your own self-hatred.

Why give others the right to rip you apart. Why rip yourself a part on a daily basis. I don't think I've ever convinced anyone to my point of view on social media.

I have been left feeling distraught over some of the toxic things said to me though. I'll even say people are outright meaner online. In real life your friends will just distance themselves if you aren't adding to them.

Online it's not uncommon to see users creating various accounts just to attack each other.

The only way to win is not to play.

I also suggest reading Lost Connections, it goes more into detail on the need for real community.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they cant support themselves, they should find something people do want to pay for. The universe doesnt owe the website creators a revenue stream.

The people who are happy to read it do owe them a revenue stream if they want a website to continue. To be perfectly clear I have no desire to see any ads, and I don't cos I block pretty much every last one (squid) but if there are sites that are worth reading, like from here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25157722 well, author's got to make money for the time they put in. Advertisers can die in rotting heaps,…

I read articles online before the advertisements came. I'll read them again after the advertisements are gone.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#63
post #24

I like the update to this from the “Social Dilemma”: ”Your manipulation is the product” . Ad blockers do not protect you from the algorithms that make you more extreme to your side of social or political topic. People are paying and using social media to manipulate your opinion and that do not come just from ads.

Anything that moves us from away from the over-used "you are the product" metaphor. Especially good to back-up from the idea that just paying for media means you'll less likely to be manipulated.

That said, once we start to talk about "manipulation", things get very relative. Human beings are social animals. I want to have contact with other people and so be influenced by them? At some point we can call some influence manipulation but there's a lot of gray areas. "Make my feed better" is a key grey area. Filtering crap from the Internet is one of the biggest jobs of both Facebook and Google. At some points that filtering becomes self-serving censorship but there are lots of gray areas. The biggest thing is that isn't a static problem - creators of viral manipulation products and ideologies get more and more sophisticated as methods evolve (articles on QAnon as gamification are worth reading). Not that Facebook and Google are blameless but it seems a ultra-networked worked, there's going to be multiple powerful forces and filters competing for influence and which one is "evil" is a difficult call.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#64
post #5

It's tiring having a finger waved at you for blocking advertisements. When we all know that our data of who we are and our actions is just as valuable as the ads we are forced to watch. The Internet has become an ad machine that throws a tantrum if anyone dares to block advertising or tracking (of yourself). YouTube was meant for sharing videos but now "influencers", many channel owners, and YouTube itself balk at an…

Internet main issue is the fallacy of free access which is quite incompatible with the old economy.

Good old society was a little less duplicit about how it operates. We live in a i-passive-aggresive land.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#65
post #24

I like the update to this from the “Social Dilemma”: ”Your manipulation is the product” . Ad blockers do not protect you from the algorithms that make you more extreme to your side of social or political topic. People are paying and using social media to manipulate your opinion and that do not come just from ads.

I dont believe this, but I am open to it. Is there any hard data/proof of this on me specifically? Sure, I agree with the concern with teens/young adults in the social dilemma, but I do not think everyone is at risk. Again, very curious to see examples/data to back this up.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#66

I've been contemplating performing an experiment where I use a new device without creating any accounts, then, seeing how useful the Internet is. (Rhetorically...) Can I use maps to navigate? Can I browse the Twitter feeds of a few favorite accounts? Can I consume free video content on YouTube, or any free movies? Can I make a reservation at a restaurant? Then, for those activities that I cannot do, is there still a…

I think this would be an interesting experiment, and I'd happily follow it. However, a complication here is that some sites/services still track you/modify their offerings without the need for an account.

I wonder if you did this across multiple devices, you could start noticing differences based on what you used for what. A/B test them back.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#67
post #28

There is a big sentiment in the comments that ads are per se a bad thing. I want to make a counter argument: ads drive innovation because they make expensive services possible for the masses. I have watched endless YouTube videos and learned a great many things. I haven’t paid a dime for it yet. Newspaper adoption in mass was achieved by the same mechanism. Ads drove the price for newspaper significantly down so the…

> ads drive innovation because they make expensive services possible for the masses.

The flaw is the assumption that this is not possible without them. Consider what happens in the alternative.

The services would still exist, but they would charge a ridiculous amount of money, even more so because charging money means most people won't pay, but if only a minority of people are paying the prices have to be even higher.

So then a hobbyist starts their own free one, and it's terrible, because it's the effort of one person on a weekend instead of a full-time staff. But free-as-in-beer. So everyone who can't afford the pay service uses that one instead.

It ends up with many users, because it's free. And the users want it to be better, so they make improvements and submit patches, or donate money etc. You end up with Linux, BitTorrent, OpenStreetMap. Somebody tell me why you couldn't build a YouTube based on BitTorrent.

You could, over time, if you could get people to use it while it's still terrible and therefore improve it. Which you could do if it was the free one when all the others cost money, but you can't do when the existing YouTube is better funded and proprietary yet still doesn't require the user to pay money to use.

And then the dominant platforms become controlled by individual companies instead of being federated open standards, which suppresses innovation by creating a monoculture that only one entity has the ability to modify.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#68
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they could potentially make a larger steady income stream if they also had ads. It happened to cable TV, it happened when HTC introduced ads to their tiles or timeline or whatever it was called, ordering food online you'll get spammed when you try to checkout to buy their new promotional item (even if you already have it in your cart), and so on. If ads aren't a perfect fit then they'll still try to add other rev…

I get that, but an ad-free experience is the main benefit of subscribing to YouTube Premium. If they introduce ads to it, why would anyone pay for it?

Fair point; I wasn't considering the context.

To try to answer you anyway, they've put a fair bit of engineering effort into making YT mildly painful to use without Premium -- things like not allowing sound to play when the screen is off (and covering your screen in ads for Premium if you wake up the phone to a running YT instance). I'm sure some people pay for Premium to improve that experience.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#69

I've been contemplating performing an experiment where I use a new device without creating any accounts, then, seeing how useful the Internet is. (Rhetorically...) Can I use maps to navigate? Can I browse the Twitter feeds of a few favorite accounts? Can I consume free video content on YouTube, or any free movies? Can I make a reservation at a restaurant? Then, for those activities that I cannot do, is there still a…

I like your thoughts on this. This would be an interesting experiment to document what you are and are not successful at. And try to push it further...

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can pay for YouTube premium and get rid of ads. If you spend a non trivial amount of time on YouTube it's well worth it, especially the family account. Don't want to be the product ? Pay for your services then - the money has to come from somewhere.

I think part of the tension is that advertising (and other data harvesting) attempts to monetize content that has virtually zero value for a lot of people: take any of the articles on a typical HN front page - right now the top two are "Booting from a vinyl record" and "Exotic programming ideas". These sound interesting (and are already somewhat well targeted to me as a HN reader), but the content is still worth almo…

Most (all ?) youtube vides fall in to virtually zero value category - but youtube as a platform is worth 15 bucks a month to me.

I must admit I would only subscribe to a written publication if I get a printed copy occasionally, but anyway like youtube I don't find individual peaces of content worth it I might find the publication valuable.

I don't see myself paying for blog article access ever - if you write outside of some publication it should either be self-promotion, exercise, or a labor of love and desire for exposure - attempting to monetise that sucks with advertising or without it - don't write those kinds of things.

I feel the same about OSS projects.

A way to invert this is to do a lot of good content consistently so you become a consistent source of valuable material - then it could fit Patreon model but I must admit I've haven't encountered someone I would sponsor like this yet. I will think about it more in the future.

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