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The election of the doge

generalist.academy

61–70 of 99 posts

Re: The election of the doge

#61
post #9

In case someone else, like me, was expecting canine memes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge > A doge was an elected lord and chief of state in several Italian city-states, notably Venice and Genoa, during the medieval and renaissance periods.

Mind the pronunciation guide: doge the meme isn't pronounced the same as doge the Venetian lord.

Re: The election of the doge

#62
[Late to the party, sorry.]

Anyone curious about modern sortition:

Citizen juries are chosen by lottery. They review policy and make recommendations. Non binding, but impactful.

https://healthydemocracy.org

https://xraypod.com/show/democracy-nerd/exporting-oregon-sty...

--

IMHO:

Treat representation and policy making as distinct and separate activities.

I'm very political. Over time, I've become increasingly disinterested in electoral politics and campaigns. At best, it's tangentially related to policy work. Less so over time.

The real power these days lies with interest groups and lobbyists. Both on the left and right.

There are some notable exceptions, where electeds are effective advocates of change, but they're rare. Most are just doing triage.

And what outsiders see as partisanship is just different teams funded by different coalitions of interest groups.

Re: The election of the doge

#63
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine haggling over the range start or range size, and then picking your salary from a uniform distribution contained by that range. I cannot imagine anyone, ever, being happy with being told "hey you're great but you only rolled a 4 on your salary negotiation so you're $15k out of pocket.

And if you roll a high salary your employer has an incentive to get rid of you and replace you with someone who rolled a 2.

I’m not sure... the difference between a 20 and a 2 shouldn’t be too large.

An example of a large range in my head is like 120-140k, a more typical one would be like 120-130k. If you’re good, you could negotiate a bigger range.

That’s an appreciable difference to the employee, but basically a rounding error to the employer.

If you have a high salary today your employer already has an incentive to get rid of you and replace you with a new grad. It already happens.

Re: The election of the doge

#64
post #4
post #3

It’s fascinating how random selection plays an essential role in the election. The final phase’s selection isn’t random, but many intermediary phases are. I think randomness is an underrated tool for introducing a sense of “fairness” to problems with strange power dynamics: where everyone is interested in a fair outcome, but the best outcome for any individual causes some harm to the group. Salary negotiation is one…

> Imagine haggling over the range start or range size, and then picking your salary from a uniform distribution contained by that range. I cannot imagine anyone, ever, being happy with being told "hey you're great but you only rolled a 4 on your salary negotiation so you're $15k out of pocket.

What you should realize is that you haven’t lost 15k.

Yay the outcome of the negotiation, the lower part of your range is something you’d be happy with, and the upper is something you’d be quite happy with.

The employer meanwhile is offering you a range from what they’d like, to what they can tolerate.

Anything you get in the middle is satisfactory to both parties, with the added benefit that you didn’t have to beg for it and they didn’t have to cave for it.

Randomness allows for some absolution of responsibility.

If you’re shameless in salary negotiations (not a bad thing for you), this system puts you at a relative disadvantage. But the median person finds salary negotiations to be nerve wracking. I think this helps people closer to the median, by allowing them to negotiate a better position without feeling as guilty about it.

Re: The election of the doge

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You beat me to it, I also thought the picture behind the link would be a Shiba with a bat punishing horny people.... and that's coming from someone who is from an area that historically use to be governed by a Doge

Zadar? ;)

Istra :)

Re: The election of the doge

#66
post #3

It’s fascinating how random selection plays an essential role in the election. The final phase’s selection isn’t random, but many intermediary phases are. I think randomness is an underrated tool for introducing a sense of “fairness” to problems with strange power dynamics: where everyone is interested in a fair outcome, but the best outcome for any individual causes some harm to the group. Salary negotiation is one…

Mathematicians already know that random selection is a powerful tool in fairness in electoral processes, the problem is with asking the modern democratic citizen and politician to accept a random process.

Re: The election of the doge

#68
post #3

It’s fascinating how random selection plays an essential role in the election. The final phase’s selection isn’t random, but many intermediary phases are. I think randomness is an underrated tool for introducing a sense of “fairness” to problems with strange power dynamics: where everyone is interested in a fair outcome, but the best outcome for any individual causes some harm to the group. Salary negotiation is one…

Mathematicians already know that random selection is a powerful tool in fairness in electoral processes, the problem is with asking the modern democratic citizen and politician to accept a random process.

Also ensuring the legitimacy of the random process (which is not really about technical features, but about social consensus): just how much easier is to claim a PRNG (or a rabbit that chooses a box, or paper slips inside cookies) is rigged.

Re: The election of the doge

#69

[Late to the party, sorry.] Anyone curious about modern sortition: Citizen juries are chosen by lottery. They review policy and make recommendations. Non binding, but impactful. https://healthydemocracy.org https://xraypod.com/show/democracy-nerd/exporting-oregon-sty... -- IMHO: Treat representation and policy making as distinct and separate activities. I'm very political. Over time, I've become increasingly disinter…

I highly recommend a short book, Hatred of Democracy by Jacques Ranciere.

Re: The election of the doge

#70

While interesting, it's not an ideal system because it's still the elite picking one of their own.

Why is that a problem? I would rather have a doge from a good family, who has been exposed to international trade and great power politics from birth, than one who was sweeping out the stables three days ago.

The non-elite are not inherently purer than the elite, and they are generally less well-educated. I am not certain how 'elite' has become a bad thing: shouldn't we all aspire to be among the elite?

I thought that there was some real genius to the English system, which at one time provided voices for both the great families and the citizenry, roughly balanced under the Crown. So too the U.S. system of senatorial selection prior to the passage of the 17th Amendment.

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