A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career • Hacker News Board

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#61

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #21

cowpig wrote: post #4

A solution to a lot of these problems that I quite like is "birdnesting," where the child(ren) keep the home they live in, and the divorcing parents take turns moving in. That seems to be clearly best for the child (removes the instability of moving back and forth between homes) and while it's inconvenient for the parents, at least it's equally inconvenient.

Seems like a really good solution for amicable divorces. When there is a lot of conflict in the relationship, it's unlikely to work well. And really the latter describes most divorces I've seen. It seems like there is almost always one spouse who doesn't want to play well at the end.

It also requires the people involved be making a good bit of money, or having previously lived well below their means. Whoever is not staying with the child at that time needs a place to live, which generally costs a significant amount, even for a small apartment.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#62

Post by pizza234 » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #25

stickyricky wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because that social expectation is there [...] The court should temper society's vices not empower them.

The court should rule with a bias in favour of the person who had to sacrifice their career to care for the children, regardless of their gender.

Courts do take that into account - parental time is actually a very important factor.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#63

Post by thx2099100 » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #34

The crux of the argument here seems to be that the author doesn't want to pay 650euros a month in child support for his kid. I have very little sympathy. The important person in all of this is the child, not him. His life is going to suck and he'll have no money. That's unfortunate but if the choice is between his life being rubbish and the child's life being rubbish it's a bit of a no-brainer.

there's no guaranty made in place that a cent of that money will go to the child. I've heard of plenty cases where children in these situations don't get to benefit from it.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#64

Post by dathinab » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

arkitaip wrote: post #22

roflc0ptic wrote: post #7

I don't have any strong opinions about the fairness or unfairness of divorce laws around parenting, not in the US and certainly not in Italy. However, I was recently a very close witness to some divorce proceedings involving my girlfriend and the end of her polyamorous marriage, and boy, oh boy. The husband made the decision to make the divorce as painful as possible (falsifying evidence, perjuring himself) to try to…

The problem is that marriage is one of those very few relationships that's design to be all-in or not exist at all. Even signing something like a prenup is seen as incredibly suspicious. All your financial decisions have to be based on the fact that you and your partner are going to stay together til death do you part.

Hm, in my environment prenup is the standard if one or both of the person's involved are wealthy, people kinda accepted that marriage tries to be forever but often isn't.

(Germany, Berlin, neither poor nor rich through sometimes slightly wealth family social circle)

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#65

Post by Dirlewanger » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

dathinab wrote: post #46

I wonder why it's flagged, the article is clearly trying the best to be reasonable impartial. It's also well known that sometimes, in some countries maybe more then others, decisions wrt. children are biased toward mother's. I have seen one such case in my environment myself. I belive it is important that such Curt decisions are based on the combination of the situation both parents are in and guidelines in a imparti…

It's flagged because some liberal yoyo took one look at the title and assumes it's some men's rights advocacy bullshit. It's attitudes like this that are the reason these issues are never brought up in the media.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#66

Post by blackbear_ » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #49

dathinab wrote: post #46

I wonder why it's flagged, the article is clearly trying the best to be reasonable impartial. It's also well known that sometimes, in some countries maybe more then others, decisions wrt. children are biased toward mother's. I have seen one such case in my environment myself. I belive it is important that such Curt decisions are based on the combination of the situation both parents are in and guidelines in a imparti…

Did you read that comic at the start and get the impression the judge ruling in favour of the mother to get money from a webdeveloper was a impartial account of events?

How about the other 4000 words below the comic?

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#67

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

paultopia wrote: post #24

This is astonishingly paranoid, even conspiracy-theory promoting. The writer claims at several points that divorce law in Italy is (allegedly) unfair because judges know that fathers typically have more resources to engage in litigation appealing bad judgments, and hence more lawyers and domestic violence clinics will get paid. Where is the evidence for such an over-the-top accusation? The fact of the matter is that…

You can look at case law and common law for the roots of this, even in the US. The entire point of child support (especially in cases where there was no marriage) is so that the state does not have to pay to raise the child.

I can't speak for the 3rd party institutions like lawyers being paid.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#68

Post by miker64 » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 6:03 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #45

miker64 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mother being treated/expected to be more of a parent does not start at divorce. That's simply the continuation of a societal expectation that women will do the 'mothering.' Because that social expectation is there, it is far more often true that in a hetro marriage the wife will be the one who gives up their career path to take care of a child. Thus the court systems has standardized on an expectation that the mo…

> That's simply the continuation of a societal expectation that women will do the 'mothering.' You are ignoring biological reality. The reason why this happens in 'hetero' couples is that the woman has an obvious physical relationship with the child. This doesn't happen in gay male couples because neither of the fathers can have this relationship. In lesbian couples, it's common for the non-bio mother to not only fee…

I'm in a hetro marriage, my kids come to me for 'mothering,' in about equal measure as they do to my wife.

And they did that when they were infants as well. My wife did not do well without a solid nights sleep, and I was used to oncall work, all night nursing was me. This was equitable, as well as playing to our strengths and weaknesses.

There is no reason to have iron rules of we must each do every parenting action in equal amounts, but to find equitable split of the work that needs to be done.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#69

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #52

SiempreViernes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a decade of childcare materially and demonstrably damaged their future career, they should take that into account. If not, no. They are a parent by their own actions, why should they be moated from the duty of parenting in the case of a divorce?

Please think about what you are saying for a minute. You are saying that if one of the parents sacrifices their future to care for the child, and the other does not, during a divorce, the latter does not owe the former anything. The better question is - why do you want to moat the latter parent moated from the duty of parenting so much? Or, if parenting is too complicated, here's a simple example. Bill marries Jill.…

That actually depends. Some states put a large weighting on lifestyle costs. So even if Jill is making tons of money, she probably won't be required to pay anything if she has been spending it on a BMW and other expensive things. Even if that were not the case, most states would not require alimony if Bill is still working. Also, some states would consider the education costs a gift and it would not entitle Bill to anything.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#70

Post by candiodari » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #55

cowpig wrote: post #4

A solution to a lot of these problems that I quite like is "birdnesting," where the child(ren) keep the home they live in, and the divorcing parents take turns moving in. That seems to be clearly best for the child (removes the instability of moving back and forth between homes) and while it's inconvenient for the parents, at least it's equally inconvenient.

The main problem I see with this is finances. It will cost more for two people living separately than together. I strongly believe that most divorces would logically and financially require the existing house to be sold so that two smaller/cheaper residences can be bought or rented. This is espesially important to financial stability in instances where child support is dictated by an arbitrary formula (which tends to…

We live in a democracy and clearly, no, this isn't what people want. They want people to not lose any living standard over something "they can't help" like a divorce, and of course all animals are equal but some are more equal (kids and women). This money is not allowed to come from the state or justice system so it must come from the only source it can come from: whoever actually earns money.

So if you divorce, you should immediately become a total deadbeat, be broke and unemployed, ideally well on the way to homeless, by the time the trial happens. In contact with social services. Because men ALSO can't lose living standard. You won't get as much, because of course the justice system is sexist, but they're forced to give you something. Obviously the justice system cannot prevent this from happening. They may respond by placing the kid in foster care.

The net result of these laws: whoever is willing to most seriously damage the kid will have a decisive advantage.