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AI that mistook a bald head for a soccer ball

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Re: AI that mistook a bald head for a soccer ball

#61

Post by olyjohn »

ballenf wrote: post #28
karmakaze wrote: post #17

Either train more with bald players, or do better at choosing the 'thing that is being converged upon'. Humans would be able to follow a game regardless of the shape or color of the ball's appearance.

It's a hard task for young kids or anyone not used to watching sports. Ever watch a new sport with a child? They frequently lose sight/track of the ball/puck/etc.

It reminds me of when I try to play any of the Smash Bros games. I can't keep track of my character on the screen ever. I don't know how people do it.

Re: AI that mistook a bald head for a soccer ball

#62

Post by soylentgraham »

dmch-1 wrote: post #46

Some time ago I needed ball video tracking for a demo at work. I failed to find any out of the box solution which worked satisfactorily. It was way easier to find solutions for seemingly more complex tasks of people tracking or human pose estimation, for which you have numerous publically available algorithms/models.

Balls dont have many unique attributes, and move a lot faster. Sonetimes humans are easier:)

Re: AI that mistook a bald head for a soccer ball

#63

Post by eCa »

markstos wrote: post #6
implying wrote: post #2

I worked for a small startup in copenhagen that worked on this exact problem. Our virtual camera solution was great, and detection of the ball worked most of the time, but white long socks would almost always take the camera's attention. Tracking a fast moving object at a distance is a hard problem indeed

In this case it seems someone could have asked the referee to wear a hat for the reminder of the game, but no one did. This isn't just a "bad AI" problem, it's failure to plan for a "Plan B" in case automated ball tracking fails for any reason.

Clothing in sports is highly regulated. For example, FIFA's Equipment Regulations are a hundred pages long[1].

Match officials in football (soccer, if you so will) very rarely wear hats (I can't remember seeing it even once). I'm surprised that I can't find any mention about headwear worn by match officials in the regulations, but regardless, they couldn't just don any old hat.

And as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are other things that also can trick up AI, like white socks. There are teams that might have had white socks for a hundred years, should they be forced to change their colours to make life easier for the AI?

[1] https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/equipment-regulation...

Re: AI that mistook a bald head for a soccer ball

#64

Post by [deleted] »

rossdavidh wrote: post #47

So, if we assume that this game is important enough to somebody to televise, why would we not have volunteers to steer the camera? This does not look like a problem that needed AI applied to it, this has the look of somebody trying to apply AI to something that NI would have worked fine on. Your basic soccer fan would have a pretty good idea of what part of the field is most interesting to be looking at right now, an…

[deleted]

Re: AI that mistook a bald head for a soccer ball

#65

Post by brudgers »

eCa wrote: post #63
markstos wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case it seems someone could have asked the referee to wear a hat for the reminder of the game, but no one did. This isn't just a "bad AI" problem, it's failure to plan for a "Plan B" in case automated ball tracking fails for any reason.

Clothing in sports is highly regulated. For example, FIFA's Equipment Regulations are a hundred pages long[1]. Match officials in football (soccer, if you so will) very rarely wear hats (I can't remember seeing it even once). I'm surprised that I can't find any mention about headwear worn by match officials in the regulations, but regardless, they couldn't just don any old hat. And as mentioned elsewhere in this thre…

Head coverings for referees would generally be a matter for national football associations as is the case with other parts of the uniform other than FIFA controlled international competitions. In the US, USSF lightened it’s stance on hats at lower levels because of skin and eye cancer cases involving “people everyone knew.” But you won’t see it a high level (e.g. professional matches) and young referees seeking to move up are discouraged from it in practice. And because the parallel system of High School and College officiating allow hats, USSF is probably more open than many national associations. The ADA also creates some legal liability as well that is unique to the US.

Re: AI that mistook a bald head for a soccer ball

#67

Post by elil17 »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #51
crispyporkbites wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you could trust a volunteer football fan to control this remotely. Losing 3-0? Oops the cameras pointing at the sky for the last 30 minutes. Penalty to the opposing team? Oops I slipped and missed it. Football fans are petty and do absolutely ridiculous things. You’d have to pay them something or find some other way to incentivise them, and you’re back to square one.

Then have a few “known good” people and then average their actions with the actions of everyone else doing it – so long as you do “virtual panning” on a cropped image to give the controllers sufficient feedback, that'll give you enough data to kick out trolls / misbehavers in a “Web of Trust” type manner, and even out most other issues that occur.

While I'm sure that would work, that sounds way more complicated than using computer vision to track the ball.

Re: AI that mistook a bald head for a soccer ball

#68

Post by netsharc »

markstos wrote: post #10
fegu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some soccer teams have bald players. Should they also wear hats?

The AI should be fixed or abandoned in the long term, but it seems a single hat could have made this game much more bearable to watch. Immediate fix now, better long term solution later.

Year 2060: "Granddad, when did they change the rules of football to say everyone on the field has to wear a dark head covering?"

Re: AI that mistook a bald head for a soccer ball

#69

Post by StavrosK »

hnick wrote: post #38
implying wrote: post #2

I worked for a small startup in copenhagen that worked on this exact problem. Our virtual camera solution was great, and detection of the ball worked most of the time, but white long socks would almost always take the camera's attention. Tracking a fast moving object at a distance is a hard problem indeed

Does AI like this incorporate negative/positive punishment into learning as well as reinforcement? Is there an equivalent of slapping it and saying "No! Bad AI!" so it drops the association more quickly?

Yes but it should be avoided because the shock damages the hard disks' heads.
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