Public Apology to Jeremy Howard • Hacker News Board

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#61

Post by re » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

kurbin wrote: post #35

They say "Because of the missteps of this committee, we have asked the NumFOCUS Board of Directors to take over the work of the committee", yet the 7-person board of directors overlaps with the 4-person code of conduct committee. Board of Directors: https://numfocus.org/community/people CoC Committee: https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct#persons-responsible

> 7-person board of directors overlaps with the 4-person code of conduct committee

The overlap is one person: Andy Terrel, NumFOCUS President.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#62

Post by wvenable » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

Jeremy says in own post on this subject:

> I was concerned that if only partial information became available, the anti-CoC crowd might jump on this as an example of problems with codes of conduct more generally, or might point at this as part of “cancel culture”

The person at the center of this actually disagrees with you. Having a vague CoC that was then not even really followed by the committee should not damn all CoCs. If you only see the worst most poorly executed examples of something then of course you'd be against them but that's not fair.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#63

Post by jf- » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

Xavdidtheshadow wrote: post #20

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I don't mean this as an attack, but I'm guessing you haven't been harassed/given unwanted attention at a conference. It's easy to see codes of conduct as draconian or unnecessary if you can't empathize with the people they're designed to protect. I'm not saying the CoC system is perfect or that there aren't false positives, but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

I agree that some conduct guidelines are justified, but should be minimal. The feeling against them is due to overreach, where they stray away from codifying generally acceptable behaviour and move into territory that the general population would find incomprehensible, such as not being able to say that someone with the opposite opinion is wrong.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#64

Post by viraptor » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

eznzt wrote: post #27

Xavdidtheshadow wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this as an attack, but I'm guessing you haven't been harassed/given unwanted attention at a conference. It's easy to see codes of conduct as draconian or unnecessary if you can't empathize with the people they're designed to protect. I'm not saying the CoC system is perfect or that there aren't false positives, but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

If you need a CoC to get rid of someone who harasses others what you have is a deeper problem

They're meant as a reminder for people who actually read them, but otherwise they're meant as a list for enforcement. They're something to point to as "you knew the rules - that's why we're removing that person". That's why in this case the affected person complained about the CoC using very ambiguous rules that were up for personal interpretation.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#65

Post by uberman » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

kurbin wrote: post #35

They say "Because of the missteps of this committee, we have asked the NumFOCUS Board of Directors to take over the work of the committee", yet the 7-person board of directors overlaps with the 4-person code of conduct committee. Board of Directors: https://numfocus.org/community/people CoC Committee: https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct#persons-responsible

The president (who presumably is also the chairman) was the only "non-staffer" on the committee and thus almost certainly had full responsibility already.

The rest of the board should ask for his resignation.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#66

Post by lolinder » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

kurbin wrote: post #35

They say "Because of the missteps of this committee, we have asked the NumFOCUS Board of Directors to take over the work of the committee", yet the 7-person board of directors overlaps with the 4-person code of conduct committee. Board of Directors: https://numfocus.org/community/people CoC Committee: https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct#persons-responsible

It's just Andy Terrel who's in both, right? That's not a huge amount of overlap. Enough to potentially cause a problem, but 6 members of the board being different (and a whole lot of public backlash) should probably be enough to resolve this.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#67

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

dagmx wrote: post #37

eznzt wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you need a CoC to get rid of someone who harasses others what you have is a deeper problem

How else would you codify what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour? Is it just arbitrary? Do you just depend on more people enforcing their views out to stop harassment? If so, then why not codify it?

[deleted]

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#68

Post by GiorgioG » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

Xavdidtheshadow wrote: post #20

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I don't mean this as an attack, but I'm guessing you haven't been harassed/given unwanted attention at a conference. It's easy to see codes of conduct as draconian or unnecessary if you can't empathize with the people they're designed to protect. I'm not saying the CoC system is perfect or that there aren't false positives, but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

> I don't mean this as an attack,

You actually do mean this as an attack - you quite literally accused me of being "_dramatically_ privileged"

Maybe you meant it as an attack and maybe you didn't. If there was a HN CoC, maybe I'm the kind of asshole that would try to accuse you of abuse. See how easy it is to abuse the system?

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#69

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #38

Xavdidtheshadow wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this as an attack, but I'm guessing you haven't been harassed/given unwanted attention at a conference. It's easy to see codes of conduct as draconian or unnecessary if you can't empathize with the people they're designed to protect. I'm not saying the CoC system is perfect or that there aren't false positives, but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

Do you think it’s possible to empathize with people who are harassed, or experience harassment, and oppose codes of conduct? Assume that empathy includes caring about protecting people.

[deleted]

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#70

Post by pelario » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

kurbin wrote: post #35

They say "Because of the missteps of this committee, we have asked the NumFOCUS Board of Directors to take over the work of the committee", yet the 7-person board of directors overlaps with the 4-person code of conduct committee. Board of Directors: https://numfocus.org/community/people CoC Committee: https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct#persons-responsible

C'mon, overlap n = 1