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Are we losing our ability to remember?

st.im

61–70 of 170 posts

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#61
I once took a class in college, “Cars and Culture”. I never forgot a line from that class - that “cars provided an extension of our legs”.

Ever since then, I have told many people and thought to myself many times, that tools, take Google for instance (search and indexing), knowledge management systems (Wiki and other techniques) - these are all extensions of our brains.

We evolve with technology, and it evolves with us. We might be losing our ability to remember, but if it is because we don’t “need” to remember because technology has augmented us... Well, this is why I also am fond of telling people that I have a difficult time separating technology from nature. Even though the two don’t seem like the same thing, technology too becomes part of the natural ecosystem as organisms invent and rely on it.

Also, another way of thinking about this is, maybe the ability to recall small detailed facts was evolutionarily less important than building models in our brains. So, we offloaded recording small facts, while I think we still ingest and build/train our neural nets just fine in our brains.

Then the only problem I see is, if life becomes all about mental models, when our ability to form new mental models degrades with age, what then? Especially with the rate of technological change, I do see a real likelihood that old mental models get left behind and without the ability to adapt, organisms (i.e.) us could be hosed.

Edit: ..and the last sentence could be why the big push for AI and machine learning too - to ensure the models get encoded into the technology too... and be discovered faster, changed more fluidly, etc. Another evolutionary tool.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#62
post #35
post #12

During the pandemic, spending more time at home and less time having real social interactions has lead me to beleive I am forgetting some of my vocabulary or at the least not practicing it enough to keep it in what you describe as "Working memory". Zoom and the like is far from natural and I find myself searching for words during sentences that I know I would not have in the past.

Can you expand on that? And can you describe your living circumstances. I'm relatively isolated due to rural life, and I haven't seen any of that in my life. I tend toward isolation naturally, so maybe that has something to do with it. But I'm fascinated by your statements. Can you go more in-depth, please?

Before the pandemic, I was living in London shared flat with my partner and a friend of ours. Had quite a busy social life, working in an office in Soho.

Since the pandemic I have moved out of the city and into a more rural isolated area (Did not see any benefit to paying high rent prices in a city when all the facilities were shut down). All of my work has moved to remote working using video conferencing etc.

Before we would use Slack a lot, but in-person meetings were a common occurence and I would spend quite a lot of time outside of work with friends or colleagues discussing various topics.

Since being in this isolated environemnt I feel that because those interactions are far more rare when they do happen I struggle to recall words or phrases that were once commonplace in my vernacular.

This is all very anecdotal evidence of course, but it's somethig i've observed in myself of a number of occasions now.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#63
post #4

Wasn’t there a Greek philosopher who lamented how the youngs are losing their ability to remember because this newfangled invention called “writing” is making them lazy?

Plato's Phaedrus (c. 360 B.C.E.) > ... If men learn [writing], it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written ... http://www.umich.edu/~lsarth/filecabinet/PlatoOnWriting.html

Yes. For those who haven't come across this factoid, it actually wasn't Plato, but Socrates who famously lamented the harmful effects of writing on memory and teaching. Socrates was a big fan of knowledge transmission through dialogue and discourse.

Socrates never wrote anything down, but Plato did, so ironically now we know about Socrates' disdain of writing through Plato's writings (in this case, the Phaedrus). Quoting a paraphrase from Wikipedia [1]

"... writing can do little but remind those who already know. Unlike dialectic and rhetoric, writing cannot be tailored to specific situations or students; the writer does not have the luxury of examining his reader's soul in order to determine the proper way to persuade. When attacked it cannot defend itself, and is unable to answer questions or refute criticism."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedrus_(dialogue)#Rhetoric,_...

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#64
post #14
post #7

> So I wouldn’t say we are losing our ability to remember, as I posed at the start of this post. I think people (me included) just don’t do enough work to move stuff from our working memory into our long-term memory. I'd say we could be better at remembering that some piece of information exists and where to find it instead of having to memorize it. This seems more powerful. And for things you do often, you will prob…

Yep, I've found I'm less effective at remembering fully detailed information but more effective at remembering 'bread crumbs' which let me quickly find the information in documentation or online. It's sort of like I store the index internally and the data table externally.

> more effective at remembering 'bread crumbs'

Fun fact: this is Ken Jennings method for practicing for Jeopardy, mental models of items and triggers with surrounding facts.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#65

I once took a class in college, “Cars and Culture”. I never forgot a line from that class - that “cars provided an extension of our legs”. Ever since then, I have told many people and thought to myself many times, that tools, take Google for instance (search and indexing), knowledge management systems (Wiki and other techniques) - these are all extensions of our brains. We evolve with technology, and it evolves with…

Yeah, I agree with you (nicely put btw) — what I find disconcerting is the fact that it's happening so quick, i.e. I notice myself evolving and changing over weeks/months and becoming increasingly reliant upon the external data stores. Pretty crazy we can adapt that quick!

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#66

I feel that in general we are consuming a lot more information than we really need. I am not sure the human brain was evolved to handle a large amount of information that does not have any physical references. I find myself not only forgetting myriad facts and figures, but also mixing up information or having false memories. Many of my memories have nothing to anchor on. I think the trend today is to prime the brain…

Reddit, and by extension HN, is by and large trivia porn.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#67
I used to think I was losing my ability to remember things due to the amount of information I was taking in. I no longer think this is true and was simply my own worry.

I do review certain things I want to remember in my downtime, but I don't think that is somehow inherently changing some larger picture like my information consumption.

Semi-related, do you guys tend to get headaches after long information binges?

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#68

For anybody interested in diving deeper into this subject, I would recommend reading The Shallows: What the Internet Is Doing to Our Brains. It was written in 2011, but is still very applicable today. Brain plasticity is a real concept and our constant connection to the Internet affects us. https://www.amazon.com/Shallows-What-Internet-Doing-Brains/d...

Second this recommendation, I enjoyed that book very much. However, I felt defeated by the end, because I couldn't act on the presented information in any meaningful way. Halfway through the book the author tells about how much he had struggled to write and had to isolate himself from technology for a while, but only temporary. He then came back and felt the "shallows" once again.

They did a good follow-up with the author on the Ezra Klein Show podcast a few months back: https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/7/1/21308153/the-ezra-klei...

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#69

I second, second brain. heh. I invested like 20 hours setting up my notion just right, and it's so worth it. It's so much more organize than my mucky/intangible brain. I also believe in the GTD philosophy that your brain is for having ideas, not storing them.

I used to think this way at the beginning of my career, and I've almost completely changed course since then. I found that organizing and storing information is somewhat overrated unless you are very, very good at knowing ahead of time whether information you have come across will be useful in the future. If you don't, then it's better to just let your brain do the means-testing there naturally -- does something make…

That's a very valid point. I used to call writing in Evernote, writing into the void.

Though the beauty of any system is you design it. You get some kind of say in what's important. I trust that more than randomly depending on your brain. The brain can be a weird place. I have embarrassing memories from my childhood, I don't know if it serves me anymore, but they're there.

Also, I get distracted too easily, having a list of tasks I'm working on keeps me on track.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#70

I used to think I was losing my ability to remember things due to the amount of information I was taking in. I no longer think this is true and was simply my own worry. I do review certain things I want to remember in my downtime, but I don't think that is somehow inherently changing some larger picture like my information consumption. Semi-related, do you guys tend to get headaches after long information binges?

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