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Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

bbc.com

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Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#61

Post by brmgb »

sokoloff wrote: post #49
yodsanklai wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rules change frequently and are badly communicated Same in France. I really wonder who takes decisions and on what basis. Some rules are ridiculous. Right now, there's a curfew in most of the country. There are exceptions though. For instance, you need to sign a document if you want to walk your dog after 9 pm (the document attests you're indeed walking your dog). And of course, you have to wear a mask, even th…

Wouldn’t the actual presence of a dog be better evidence of a dog walk than a paper saying you’re walking a dog? This sounds like a rejected Monty Python sketch. “Pardon, monsieur; why are you out after curfew?” “I’m walking my dog!” “What dog?” “I have the paperwork right here.” “Very well; bonne nuit!”

It is to have people have the time they went out and the place they are staying at written (or on an app actually) so it can be checked during controls.

If it wasn't mandatory, people could stay out all night and go wherever they wanted provided they were bringing a dog with them.

Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#62

Post by mannykannot »

harambae wrote: post #60
mannykannot wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The physical-proximity model has a problem with Italy’s distance from China.

There were workers in the Italian fashion industry who came straight from Wuhan. That was the whole reason they had a step-function for initial infection.

Precisely - physical distance is not a relevant measure.

Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#63

Post by masak »

slaw wrote: post #47

Sweden and Belarus handled pandemic by not doing lockdowns. In Sweden for the last 3 months only 0-3 people a day die with covid-19. There is no second wave like in other European countries. https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/se

I know the Swedish like to repeat that there is no second wave like in the other European countries, but... I've been looking at this graph for the past few weeks: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/sweden?countr...

Now, it might be that the new cases this time are less severe, I don't know. But it's a second wave.

Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#64

Post by redis_mlc »

ch4s3 wrote: post #25
cultus wrote: post #18

Trump gets most of the attention, but this whole pandemic has laid plain how liberal republics have been hollowed out by neoliberalism over the past few decades. The capability for broad, fast, collective action has been all-but wiped out, even in the supposedly enlightened and well-run countries of Western Europe. The nations that defeated fascism are crippled by a far weaker threat. I can't think of another liberal…

Japan and Canada seem to have done relatively well, as have the Nordic countries (perhaps with the exception of Sweden which is TBD). The Baltic nations have done reasonably well too. Looking outside of Europe and the OECD, African democracies like Rawanda have kept the virus in check without draconian measures. Having good or at least recently tested public health infrastructure and lucking into a good head of state…

> Canada seem to have done relatively well

Strangely, although Canada was much better prepared (from SARS-1 in 2003) than the USA (CDC fiasco) and their politicians listened to "science", they haven't done as well as expected.

Their death rate is half that of the USA so far, but that's still almost 10,000 dead for a population of 37 million, vs. 200,000 dead for US population of 320 million.

Some of the spread and deaths were from farm labor continuing to cross the border from Mexico to Ontario during the lockdown.

Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#65

Post by jariel »

slaw wrote: post #47

Sweden and Belarus handled pandemic by not doing lockdowns. In Sweden for the last 3 months only 0-3 people a day die with covid-19. There is no second wave like in other European countries. https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/se

???

1) The data you showed literally displays a full blown tidal wave 'second wave' hitting Sweden, 1500 cases/day in a country of 8M people and growing exponentially is absolutely a 'second wave'. Seriously, what are you looking at? That rate of expansion, if not controlled with further social modifications, will overwhelm the country in about 3 weeks.

(Remember that quite some number of people need to be hospitalized, that the hospitals have to refuse other patients, that it will force other lockdowns, and it eventually will trickle to the older people - who will die.)

2) Sweden avoided an 'initial lockdown' but most countries only did a 'lock down' for several weeks. Otherwise, a lot of the de-facto policies have been quite similar. As of 4 weeks ago I suggest Sweden was 'on par' with the rest of the Western world.

Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#66

Post by jariel »

It's obviously a bad sign if they are even thinking of resorting to this ... the 'second wave lockdowns' are a failure of leadership in most of the West.

The '1st wave' was understandable - crude measures in an emergency, fair enough.

But should have a much more nuanced understanding of the situation by now, and be able to focus on smart but clear policies.

There was a 'sweet spot' coming out of the lockdowns that would work well, but we moved past it, and how we're playing a game of 'back and forth'.

For example, we probably don't need lockdowns or curfews at all, they are a little totalitarian and probably do nothing but get people super mad.

We probably need to stop social gatherings of all kinds, limit social bubbles to nuclear units.

On TikTok I see way, way too much intermingling among especially young people who are unambiguously driving the second wave.

We also probably need to support our local businesses as we can and 'keep things moving' i.e. 'Remember to Get Takeout'.

In Canada Unis opened up, there were house parties, dorm parties, bars with drunk student what the goddam hell were they thinking? How about: nobody in your house/dorm unless they live there, 'outdoor beer gardens' only, limit 2 beers. Have a 'dance party' in a big open parking lot to break the social malaise. Otherwise threaten expel students who break the established rules for putting other people's lives at risk.

We have almost stopped talking about 'isolation' and we have no support for it. In Taiwan, they send you home, show up at your door with masks, call you every day to check up on you. That kind of 'nudging' would be hugely impactful, it's also a form of tracing.

Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#67

Post by jariel »

ch4s3 wrote: post #51
orwin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan/Korea are not as liberal as US/western europe though. And danemark/norway/sweden/finland or the baltic countries in general are more socialist that enven France, really.

Norway, Finland, Denmark, and Estonia all rank higher in economic freedom than the US and have more direct democracies. The US literally wrote Japan's constitution. France stands out as having the most powerful executive branch of any of these countries.

That the US 'wrote' Japanese constitution is a technical artifact.

99% of their culture is not based on the cultural vestiges as we articulate then 'in law'.

They technically have some institutions which mirror 'Western Liberal Democracy' but they are not remotely like Western nations in that sense.

Taiwan, Singapore are also technically a lot like 'Western Liberal Democracies' but we can see they absolutely are not, right there in their COVID responses.

They are indeed noteworthily 'different'.

Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#68

Post by dragonwriter »

jariel wrote: post #66

It's obviously a bad sign if they are even thinking of resorting to this ... the 'second wave lockdowns' are a failure of leadership in most of the West. The '1st wave' was understandable - crude measures in an emergency, fair enough. But should have a much more nuanced understanding of the situation by now, and be able to focus on smart but clear policies. There was a 'sweet spot' coming out of the lockdowns that wo…

> The '1st wave' was understandable - crude measures in an emergency, fair enough.

The US is largely still in a rolling first wave; the separate nation-wide peaks are the result of the fact that not everywhere got hit at the same time, so, e.g., New York had hit it's first peak and bent things downward before much of the country had even noticeably been hit at all. There's some places that are in genuine second waves, but much of the country is still experience it's first wave (often in a post-lockdown climb after a lockdown-generated plateau.)

Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#69

Post by baud147258 »

jariel wrote: post #66

It's obviously a bad sign if they are even thinking of resorting to this ... the 'second wave lockdowns' are a failure of leadership in most of the West. The '1st wave' was understandable - crude measures in an emergency, fair enough. But should have a much more nuanced understanding of the situation by now, and be able to focus on smart but clear policies. There was a 'sweet spot' coming out of the lockdowns that wo…

yeah, second wave is hitting here in France and it seems the hospital are even less prepared this time around.

Re: Covid: Belgian doctors with coronavirus asked to keep working

#70

Post by baud147258 »

m0zg wrote: post #52
axolttl88 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia. After a (relatively) small second wave spike in one of the states (Victoria) which is now under control, there are very few cases of community transmission. It’s the result of a combination of: controlled island borders, unpopular but effective internal hard borders between some states, mandatory managed hotel quarantine for inbound passengers, well-executed contact tracing by health departments, broad acc…

> which is now under control Famous last words. See e.g. France.

Was it claimed that it was under control in France? (it might have been said in the media, but I've mostly stopped following the news)
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