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Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

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Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#61

Post by samatman »

GavinMcG wrote: post #41
no_wizard wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply, I'm not one to give praise through a rose colored lens. This is especially true in a place like HN, where its entirely possible the core maintainers of a project may read my feedback, and may or may not feel inclined to clarify, quantify, or at least acknowledge what I have to say about a project. I'm not bringing it down by being honest in how I feel. My praise for nim is genuine and forthright, and I've rec…

And where criticism is substantive, that's valuable. It isn't in this case, and it's hardly dishonest to keep subjective preferences in their place: within our own heads. There's a culture of reflexive criticism in intelligent communities, and I think it has negative side effects we haven't acknowledged. Yeah, it feels good to give one's full-throated opinion without bothering to edit oneself, but we build a better w…

The critique is more substantive than your critique of the critique, especially when you keep dogging on them after they were kind enough to explain it further.

Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#62

Post by elcritch »

nine_k wrote: post #56
elcritch wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having all references that are returned from C be treated as Option types would resolve this difficulty, no? Perhaps, but there's more than just returns. Dealing with most C code there's a fair bit of pointer passing and manipulation. It's nice being able to deal directly with C code and not have to worry about the impedance mismatch, but still be able to move up the type system. It's more a pragmatic choice. > Lik…

All the convenience and all the unsafety of C code while interacting with C code? Why not just use C, or C++ if expression power is needed?

Same reason as using unsafe Rust to interface w/ C/C++, to wrap the the unsafe bits and make safer API's asap. Nim's macros also making interactions with C API's safer. To be clear, I'll be glad when Nim checks these things by default (the Z3 checker will be great for that!).

Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#63

Post by GavinMcG »

Aeolun wrote: post #60
GavinMcG wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where criticism is substantive, that's valuable. It isn't in this case, and it's hardly dishonest to keep subjective preferences in their place: within our own heads. There's a culture of reflexive criticism in intelligent communities, and I think it has negative side effects we haven't acknowledged. Yeah, it feels good to give one's full-throated opinion without bothering to edit oneself, but we build a better w…

We’re kind of in a place where we are discussing those preferences though. Personally something that looks so silly stresses me out enough to either not use the feature or not use the language, so I’m kind of happy for the comment. You may think that’s shallow, but if I have a hundred languages to choose from, a few of which check all the boxes, I’ll go with those.

I think even that is a reasonable comment to make. It's criticism of things that don't impact your decision (as in the comment I responded to) that offer negative value, in my view.

Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#64

Post by ziotom78 »

JNRowe wrote: post #37
Xevi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I have absolutely no idea what was changed in most of those commits. If I relied on this framework it would be a pain in the * to trace down when a potential bug was introduced, or to just get an overview of what's being worked on.

I was trying to track down a problem in the nim-lang/Nim repo, and had a similar impression. During a `git bisect` run I thought I'd made a mistake as I saw duplicate messages pop up, until I realised there are an enormous amount of duplicate messages in the repo. A lazy scan right now shows over a hundred "make tests green again", a dozen "fix(up|)", handful of "WIP", etc. And beyond that a huge chunk are just "upda…

Thank you for this perspective: I never realized that "git bisect" is good only as long as commit messages are meaningful. I'm going to teach how to use "git" in my class next semester, and this is surely a point I will make!

Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#65

Post by memsom »

__ryan__ wrote: post #39
memsom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is is confusing if you know what Prolog is. Real world example: Once there was a new browser from Mozilla called Firebird. There was also a previously established RDBMS called Firebird. No one believed the browser and the RDBMS would be confused, but none the less Firebird the Browser is now called Firefox. The reason is a little confused - Mozilla at the time claimed something like "Firefox was only the code nam…

> Edit: also, searching for "prolog web framework" gets you stuff about using prolog for web application development. So, yeah, naming is not great and your assertion is not entirely correct. Is this a typo? I would certainly hope that a search for " prolog web framework" would not include results about a web framework written in Nim named " Prologue " "Prolog" and "prologue" are completely different words with diffe…

Well they are, but they aren't. They are both pronounced the same and if I hear one, I could easily mistake the other. If someone tells me about this "prologue web framework" I could easily transliterate that as "prolog". Also - fuzzy search as mentioned.

"Sea" and "C" are not the same ballpark. "Prolog" is a subset of "Prologue." This is more like "C" and "C#", and I can tell you that it is actually a problem.

Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#66

Post by __ryan__ »

memsom wrote: post #65
__ryan__ wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Edit: also, searching for "prolog web framework" gets you stuff about using prolog for web application development. So, yeah, naming is not great and your assertion is not entirely correct. Is this a typo? I would certainly hope that a search for " prolog web framework" would not include results about a web framework written in Nim named " Prologue " "Prolog" and "prologue" are completely different words with diffe…

Well they are, but they aren't. They are both pronounced the same and if I hear one, I could easily mistake the other. If someone tells me about this "prologue web framework" I could easily transliterate that as "prolog". Also - fuzzy search as mentioned. "Sea" and "C" are not the same ballpark. "Prolog" is a subset of "Prologue." This is more like "C" and "C#", and I can tell you that it is actually a problem.

> Also - fuzzy search as mentioned.

So was your edit on the comment I replied to (repeated below) a typo?

> Edit: also, searching for "prolog web framework" gets you stuff about using prolog for web application development. So, yeah, naming is not great and your assertion is not entirely correct.

This is an anecdote in favor of fuzzy search not really being an issue.

> If someone tells me about this "prologue web framework" I could easily transliterate that as "prolog".

If someone told me about that “C programming language” I could easily transliterate that as “sea” or misremember it as “B”.

These are contrived situations. Imagine someone told me about “Prologue: a web framework written in Nim”, and I transliterated that to “prolog web framework”. If I searched that and it didn’t come up with a web framework written in Nim, I would think critically about the issue and change my search to “prolog web framework Nim” and would find this project.

It would be so silly to change the name or avoid the name of a completely unrelated project when ideally anyone faced with the issue would have the critical thinking skills to adjust and refine their search terms so it was not an issue.

Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#67

Post by arc776 »

qmmmur wrote: post #57
arc776 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding GUI, there is also https://github.com/yglukhov/nimx which is based on OpenGL. > Nimx officially supports Linux, MacOS, Windows, Android, iOS, Javascript (with Nim JS backend) and Asm.js/WebAssembly (with Nim C backend and Emscripten).

The web example leaves a lot to be desired honestly.

Fair enough, I feel like some antialiasing on the fonts would make it look a lot nicer.

Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#68

Post by memsom »

__ryan__ wrote: post #66
memsom wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they are, but they aren't. They are both pronounced the same and if I hear one, I could easily mistake the other. If someone tells me about this "prologue web framework" I could easily transliterate that as "prolog". Also - fuzzy search as mentioned. "Sea" and "C" are not the same ballpark. "Prolog" is a subset of "Prologue." This is more like "C" and "C#", and I can tell you that it is actually a problem.

> Also - fuzzy search as mentioned. So was your edit on the comment I replied to (repeated below) a typo? > Edit: also, searching for "prolog web framework" gets you stuff about using prolog for web application development. So, yeah, naming is not great and your assertion is not entirely correct. This is an anecdote in favor of fuzzy search not really being an issue. > If someone tells me about this "prologue web fra…

The edit? No. Why would it be a typo? You assume everyone's first language is English, right?

So, it really depends on your search engine. Using 3 different ones, assuming my English spelling is less than stellar, only looking at the first page:

"Prolog Web framework"

Duck Duck Go/ Bing/ Google: all prolog

"Prologe Web framework"

Duck Duck Go: 5th hit is Prolog based

Bing: 7th hit is prolog

Google: first hit prolog

So yeah - there is a possibility of confusion.

> If someone told me about that “C programming language” I could easily transliterate that as “sea” or misremember it as “B”.

If you knew nothing about programming and technology. I counter that if someone told be about "Prologue" I would assume "Prolog". I wonder why "Nim" would come in to it? I don't know about you, but I don't go around saying "I wrote apps in MFC in C++ in the 90's", or "I write ASP.Net applications in C#". I think the framework stands alone, surely? The language is an implementation detail, and I guess Prologue might one day be ported to another platform if it is really all that good?

The issue is that your position is people something like - should be intelligent enough to know what is meant by a phrase. My position is that you are massively underestimating the issue with the words basically looking and sounding the same. Your attempt at a counter is a weak argument about how people might dramatically misremember facts anyway.

I think I looked at your history, and this is not the first time you got in to a debate like this, so I'm out... it's a bad name - the creator should probably rethink it or prefix "Nim" to make it unique, but whatever.

Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#69

Post by __ryan__ »

memsom wrote: post #68
__ryan__ wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also - fuzzy search as mentioned. So was your edit on the comment I replied to (repeated below) a typo? > Edit: also, searching for "prolog web framework" gets you stuff about using prolog for web application development. So, yeah, naming is not great and your assertion is not entirely correct. This is an anecdote in favor of fuzzy search not really being an issue. > If someone tells me about this "prologue web fra…

The edit? No. Why would it be a typo? You assume everyone's first language is English, right? So, it really depends on your search engine. Using 3 different ones, assuming my English spelling is less than stellar, only looking at the first page: "Prolog Web framework" Duck Duck Go/ Bing/ Google: all prolog "Prologe Web framework" Duck Duck Go: 5th hit is Prolog based Bing: 7th hit is prolog Google: first hit prolog S…

> The edit? No. Why would it be a typo? You assume everyone's first language is English, right?

No, I was asking if it was a typo because I interpreted it as being a counter-point to the point you were trying to make. Here it is again, emphasis mine:

> Edit: also, searching for "prolog web framework" gets you stuff about using prolog for web application development. [...] And no sniff of this new framework.

I interpreted this as being critical of fuzzy matching, but I realize now you may have been giving an example of a transliteration a hypothetical searcher would make themselves, which makes more sense. Since what you described is what I consider to be the ideal behavior of a search engine, I thought it was possibly you meant to say "also, searching for 'prologue web framework'". I'm sorry I misunderstood.

> The language is an implementation detail [...]

I don't personally agree with this. If the language is important to the project (in this case, it is since this is a web framework for Nim), I would probably make a point to add that context.

> I think I looked at your history, and this is not the first time you got in to a debate like this, so I'm out...

Sincerely asking (it sounds snarky but I don't know how else to ask): is there something wrong about the way I'm arguing my position? I am not trying to be rude or anything, I just sincerely disagree. Would it be better if I just conceded or simply stopped responding?

> it's a bad name - the creator should probably rethink it or prefix "Nim" to make it unique, but whatever.

Disagree. I suppose it's my fault for arguing what clearly comes down to your opinion.

Edit:

> My position is that you are massively underestimating the issue with the words basically looking and sounding the same.

I totally understand the hypothetical issues that can come up in this kind of situation.

My position is simply that in this case the arguments against using this name are contrived and furthermore are resolved with the slightest pinch of context.

Re: Prologue: A web framework written in Nim

#70

Post by JNRowe »

ziotom78 wrote: post #64
JNRowe wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was trying to track down a problem in the nim-lang/Nim repo, and had a similar impression. During a `git bisect` run I thought I'd made a mistake as I saw duplicate messages pop up, until I realised there are an enormous amount of duplicate messages in the repo. A lazy scan right now shows over a hundred "make tests green again", a dozen "fix(up|)", handful of "WIP", etc. And beyond that a huge chunk are just "upda…

Thank you for this perspective: I never realized that "git bisect" is good only as long as commit messages are meaningful. I'm going to teach how to use "git" in my class next semester, and this is surely a point I will make!

I may have poorly made my point. It isn't that bisect is /only/ useful with good commit messages, but many subcommands are vastly improved when there is meaningful information about the change in the message.

For example, rebase's default output includes the previous and next commit messages when you pause to edit a commit.

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