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Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

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Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#61

Both major consumer OS vendors seem hell-bent on bringing the OS layer under their complete control. As a power user, it's very frustrating. Meanwhile "desktop" Linux still kind of sucks, just like it did 10 years ago. I don't have much hope of seeing a compelling, unified UX out of Linux in my lifetime.

Maybe desktop Linux needs more people like you and me to help make it better?

Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#62

That’s annoying yet pretty predictable, at least we’ve still got https://pi-hole.net/ as an option until DNS encryption becomes widespread :/

Not a pi-hole user, but what is the plan for pi-hole once encrypted dns is everywhere? Will it just be dead? I can’t really think of a way for it not to be.

You can always reconfigure your DNS. It's important feature so unlikely they'll get rid of that.

Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#63
post #48
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should've clarified - it only does this if there is a default route. Funnily enough, whilst the firewalls in the original twitter post would possibly fail to catch this traffic, PF will block it just fine.

Having a default route does not mean the internet is reachable.

I wish Apple agreed.

But on the other hand, there are use cases where checking for the existence of a default route is the best heuristic.

Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#64
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dont pray, just dont buy Apple Products

The alternative is what? System76 makes a decent laptop but they don’t have a repair center in every major city. I buy Apple computers because of the hardware support and integration with iPhone. Speaking of iPhone, the open options are at best abysmal for privacy (at least orders of magnitudes worse than Apple) and at worst part of planned obsolescence that creates e-waste much faster than Apple devices. Fun fact, a…

The alternative is Windows 10 on a wide variety of hardware, or Linux.

Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#65

That’s annoying yet pretty predictable, at least we’ve still got https://pi-hole.net/ as an option until DNS encryption becomes widespread :/

Not a pi-hole user, but what is the plan for pi-hole once encrypted dns is everywhere? Will it just be dead? I can’t really think of a way for it not to be.

DoT isn't a big problem for a pihole, but it doesn't look like things are going that way. DoH can only be blocked by a mitm proxy. You would have to take a pretty serious security hit to do something like that with a pihole.

Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#66
post #21

Apple seems to do all kinds of weird networking _stuff_. For instance, during wakeup, your T2 equipped Macbook will wait for a DNS response and then use said DNS response to synchronize time via NTP before letting the user use the keyboard. Probably checking timestamps on signatures for the keyboard firmware, or something stupid like that. This only happens if it happens to have a default route. Similarly, all macOS…

> but is it really that hard to document these behaviors?

I imagine it is, given the bureaucracy of a big company. Apple's documentation has long been really dreadful, mostly nonexistent and where it does exist, usually incomplete and even wrong. I've assumed it was because the code itself is developed by isolated groups while the documentation presumably has to touch all sorts of people (publishing, translation, language checks, ...) in a kind of Conway's law.

However, hard or not, writing comprehensive documentation is quite doable. I have never been a fan of the Windows programming model but I have long admired not just MS's documentation but the amount of effort and commitment they obviously put in.

Apple cares about some things but in this regard it appears they simply don't give a shit.

Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#67
post #19
post #11

So? Users expect basic OS functionality (like the App Store, Maps, etc) to function. Do people really install Little Snitch (which I've used since 2005 or so) for blocking Apple's own apps?

It is a firewall, i should be able to decide what goes in and out of my computer

It is pretty clear Apple doesn't think it is your computer. Similar to how they feel about their phones that they let people use.

edit-to-add: further evidenced by Apple's stance on right-to-repair.

Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#68
post #48
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should've clarified - it only does this if there is a default route. Funnily enough, whilst the firewalls in the original twitter post would possibly fail to catch this traffic, PF will block it just fine.

Having a default route does not mean the internet is reachable.

Probably why the other discussed function exists:

> Similarly, all macOS machines will test a DHCP supplied default route before applying it by trying to reach something on the internet. So if you happen to have some firewall rules that block internet access, no default route will be applied until the internet check times out.

So if the default route doesn't exist yet since it's still checking for internet, it would let you use the keyboard. DHCP probably runs every time the NIC is turned on (like from sleep), and they could just disable this function if you've set a static default route (since they may not be able to reach their NTP server on that route).

Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a pi-hole user, but what is the plan for pi-hole once encrypted dns is everywhere? Will it just be dead? I can’t really think of a way for it not to be.

Couldn't you host pi-hole on a cheap VM and set it to be your DNS-over-TLS / DNS-over-HTTPS endpoint?

This assumes that your software is doing what you asked it to do, not what some bigco or malware wanted it to do.

Re: Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

#70

Background: I've written my own kernel extension that works in similar manner to Little Snitch, but does a lot more, including SSL MITM and on-demand packet capture, that I've been using for more than 10 years now. It's a fact that Apple has continuously moved to lock down macOS in ways that are antithetical to folks that want full control over their operating system. To many of us that moved on from Linux on the des…

I just moved from Macos to Linux. The Linux desktop experience has improved a lot in the past five years (at least KDE has).
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