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Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

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Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#61
post #18

Are these proposed central bank “digital currencies” anything more than a centralised or federalised database of who-owns-how-many? And if so, how does that differ from what we have now? That is, in a European country, I have an account with my bank, and my bank has an account with the central bank (or the two interact in some other way). My understanding of the current system is limited, I merely know some large por…

Well, the current system as you describe is a two-level system with your bank in between; a CBDC allows you to "have an account" directly with the central bank directly and make/receive payments without needing a retail bank intermediary. It also enables central banks to achieve policy goals that they could not earlier - for example, in the last big crisis all the quantitative easing did not result in as much actual…

Rewriting legislation would also enable that.

But why not partake in a massive real engineering project? It’s not like the environment cares! It’s just there.

Again, we already have solutions.

What happened to tech people’s DRY and KISS, don’t be clever, mantras?

Legislative capture is the engineering problem. Forcing Machiavellian machinery on society seems to be the only answer our dimwitted hierarchy can ever come up with.

It’s Jesus! Obviously it’s capital trade! Obviously it’s statistical!

Never, obviously it’s just people and I’m merely one of them.

How much longer is the aristocracy (including this scene since it’s wealthier than most and leverages that to export its expectations on others) expecting billions facing environmental collapse to nod and smile for a bunch of “godheaded” normies?

You all are LARPing nonsense in a very subtle way. Contorted language and made up objects conjured by clearly senile, puerile, selfish, ignorant leaders.

Controlling governments directly is the only real solution to any problem you bring up due to the never ending issue of legislative capture.

For a forum of supposedly bright, clever minds, repetitively iterating on the edge of what societies leaders “allow” seems self defeating and lazy.

If the result of all this work for a mercantile scoreboard exacerbates a real problem, technical engineering is a non-solution.

You all are risking your future by putting the next generation in a even more precarious position.

Ageism & guilt by association to our contemporary economic agency is going to bite the grown ups of today in their twilight years.

Look how indifferent we are about cohorts that statistically fall off our radar.

What the hell are they going to care about a bunch of gerontocrats who make up a smaller percent of the population than the 20-30yos and their young?

Obviously the environmental concerns for them are not there in you, tacitly supporting this.

And I am doing my part to make this happen by explaining this to kids, my own and others; when we’re old, shovel us into the bay. We’ll have earned for being the first form of society to leave behind such a mess.

Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#62
post #18

Are these proposed central bank “digital currencies” anything more than a centralised or federalised database of who-owns-how-many? And if so, how does that differ from what we have now? That is, in a European country, I have an account with my bank, and my bank has an account with the central bank (or the two interact in some other way). My understanding of the current system is limited, I merely know some large por…

Imagine this as an open API that everybody can use to transact using the currency of the gov.

Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#63
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if we want to argue that central banks will soon be pushing for CBDCs to let people have accounts directly with the central bank we need to argue why they at the same time are opposing* narrow banks, which to me seems to be a different technical tool achieving an equivalent goal? * At least the Fed seems to be: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-03-08/the-fe...

The main reason the Fed is rejecting this is that it doesn't want to give banking privileges to entities which don't perform the core function of commercial banks from the Fed's point of view (lending) and really dislikes the idea of the public getting reasonably high interest rates for zero risk and zero contribution to the economy for reasons discussed in your article. If that's proposed as a goal for CBDCs, they w…

I agree. In which case I think the question as posed in a sibling thread is central: How do CBDCs differ from the current digital settlement system already available at several central banks? The sibling thread mentions the Bank of England and the Danish central bank has a similar digital settlement system. Is it “just” a fancy term for a technical upgrade or is there a substantive difference in function?

Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The experience with pandemic emergency payments has brought forward an idea that was already gaining increased attention at central banks around the world, that is, central bank digital currency (CBDC). Legislation has proposed that each American have an account at the Fed in which digital dollars could be deposited, as liabilities of the Federal Reserve Banks, which could be used for emergency payments https://www…

What I don't get is why wouldn't they be able to credit /debit regular bank accounts with money instead of creating a new "digital system"?

the most obvious case is that people don't have a bank account or are 'underbanked' in the US that amounts to about a quarter of the population[1]. I think covid has shown what a mess it is to get everyone their relief money. If everyone had a digital account with the FED it'd literally be a few clicks of a button.

[1]https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/08/25percent-of-us-households-a...

Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#65

It may come across as snark, but I happen to believe this quote of Bill Hicks truly captures most of my thoughts on the subject. “Rock stars against drugs – that's what we want, isn't it? Government-approved rock-n-roll? Woo! We're partying now!” The entire reason for crypto is the already ridiculous level of control exerted over various gatekeepers. How do I know? I am part of the system.

> The entire reason for crypto is the already ridiculous level of control exerted over various gatekeepers. How do I know? I am part of the system. Can you elaborate on the "ridiculous level of control over various gate-keepers"?

Sure. None of it is secret.

There are regulations in place that enforce specific agenda under the guise of AML, fraud, sanctions, etc. For banks and MSBs type businesses that typically are covered under BSA. But even if you think you are not covered by BSA, there is always FinCEN, where OFAC's strict liability is a pretty big stick.

That was high level, but during a more recent conference I participated in ( ages ago now, but on that particular subject ), the discussion of AML professionals suggested something along the lines of 'we can already identify those illicit transactions, why can't we just stop them' ( and to a large degree it is true; your credit card, your bank, your msb knows to large degree what you are buying and what you may be into based on those purchases ). That particular conversation was about CBD products, which at the time were on a weird legal ground.

I want you to think about it. Your bank is already capable of deciding a specific type of product is bad for you. Has been for a while and there are people would like to have a say on what is bad. And they are gaining ground.

My point is, there is already sufficient amount of control each gate keeper has. All it really needs is a request from government to start gate keeping.

Hope this answer the question. There are obviously things I should not be talking about on a public forum and company specific info I can't talk about.

Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The experience with pandemic emergency payments has brought forward an idea that was already gaining increased attention at central banks around the world, that is, central bank digital currency (CBDC). Legislation has proposed that each American have an account at the Fed in which digital dollars could be deposited, as liabilities of the Federal Reserve Banks, which could be used for emergency payments https://www…

What I don't get is why wouldn't they be able to credit /debit regular bank accounts with money instead of creating a new "digital system"?

Because central banks have no direct control over regular bank accounts? Regular bank accounts are not held at central banks (yet).

Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#67
post #18

Are these proposed central bank “digital currencies” anything more than a centralised or federalised database of who-owns-how-many? And if so, how does that differ from what we have now? That is, in a European country, I have an account with my bank, and my bank has an account with the central bank (or the two interact in some other way). My understanding of the current system is limited, I merely know some large por…

It’s little more than a current account at the central bank rather than a commercial bank.

Which of course removes bank solvency risk - just like cash

Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the current system as you describe is a two-level system with your bank in between; a CBDC allows you to "have an account" directly with the central bank directly and make/receive payments without needing a retail bank intermediary. It also enables central banks to achieve policy goals that they could not earlier - for example, in the last big crisis all the quantitative easing did not result in as much actual…

I read somewhere that in the US some banks took the QE money and put it back into their accounts with the Fed where it collected interest. Rather than lend it out, they essentially got paid just to hold it. There’s an economic argument saying that it made them safer, etc. but it doesn’t sound quite right to me.

Banks don’t lend out money from central banks. Never have.

Banks can only store reserves in accounts at the central bank because only banks can have such accounts.

What they get is money from the central bank in interest for holding those reserves and that effectively subsides lending a bit - at least until the interest rate drops so low that people are tempted to draw out cash

Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#69
Honestly long overdue in my opinion. I've always thought of access to payment systems the same way as I think of clean drinking water. it's basic infrastructure and it should be available to everyone at as little cost as possible, both literal cost and hassle.

When I moved to the UK and healthcare basically worked by registering with a GP and that was it and I didn't have to deal with insurance any more it was extremely pleasant. I just want the same thing for payments tbh, just give me digital Euros, accepted everywhere and transfer it instantly between people.

Re: Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming

#70
post #56
post #18

Are these proposed central bank “digital currencies” anything more than a centralised or federalised database of who-owns-how-many? And if so, how does that differ from what we have now? That is, in a European country, I have an account with my bank, and my bank has an account with the central bank (or the two interact in some other way). My understanding of the current system is limited, I merely know some large por…

> And if so, how does that differ from what we have now? 1) One important difference is counterparty risk: the balance of your bank account is not really backed by anything, it is only a liability of the bank. If the bank goes bust then you are left with nothing (except for any amounts covered by government deposit guarantee schemes). This would not be an issue for an account at the ECB because they can't go bust. On…

Digital euro would have to be handled by the national central banks to avoid pooling. The ECB is a bit different as it has another level of hierarchy in the banking system.
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