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Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

lowtechmagazine.com

61–70 of 95 posts

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#61
I would like somebody to explain his "replace batteries every 2-3 years" comment. I think this is true of small scale Lead-Acid based UPS, but Neoen scale Li-Ion stacks come with a battery management system which I believe offers better than 80% effective battery energy density over a longer life: 5+ years. Certainly the assumptive economics behind grid-scale battery models from Tesla is, a far longer working life than this. And, the evidence of full cycle life on Tesla car batteries and even Prius, is better than 2-3 years of useful life.

This may be because they over-provision so "rated" energy is met by replacement from a 110% sold capacity-type model.

I think the rest of the article is great. Fascinating.

Grid scale compressed air storage is a thing, and may have low energy efficiency, but so does PHES. The thing is, they can be huge, and they can sustain power for long periods. The heat loss story, I am confused by because usually this gets better with scale: you can exploit a lot of lower grade energy in heat/cool cycles, either to retain it in system eg heat transfer to another form of heat energy storage, or, for adjunct purpose like building heating or cooling.

Fan, not expert, experts can put me right!

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#62

It would be more efficient to use a pressure tank half filled with water and use water pump and Pelton turbine for the energy cycling.

Water is practically incompressible.

If you wanted to compress the air 10x the atmosphere pressure, when it takes 10% of the normal volume, you would have to fill the tank with water for more than 90%.

Without water, you can compress air 10x and put 10x more of it into the same pressurized tank.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#63

While I'm a pretty big fan of low tech solutions, I'd just like to point out that electrochemical hydrogen compressors can basically already do this, but better. 80% round trip compression efficiency, up to 700 bar compression, no moving parts, and massively long lifetimes (in the 30-50 year range). The fact that the compression medium (hydrogen) is also an energy storage medium is just a cherry on top. It's just a m…

The advantage of a system as simple as compressed air, is that anyone with a minimal technical background and shop tools is able to maintain and minimally repair the compression system.

An electro-chemical hydrogen conversion and compression vessel would have far more points of failure with far greater technical barriers to repair. The access to specialized spares in a remote location would also be a major issue.

I am not saying it cannot become a player in energy storage to eliminate the need for coal and natural gas energy generation. But it seems unlikely that would be a good choice for remote 'off-grid' location.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#64
post #10

I'll admit this article describes a much less bad system than what I envision when someone mentions compressed air energy storage. On a side note, I wonder what the state of research is on reducing the embodied energy in li-ion battery production. The mentioned figure in the article is surprisingly high (2-10 times the total energy the battery will store - presumably they mean over its lifetime), which now that I thi…

The factory producing batteries pays for power just like everyone else. Whatever energy is consumed in production ends up built into the price of the finished product. Simple economics puts the lie to outlandish claims intended to manipulate markets.

Except price of energy currently doesn't fully account for the ecological damage the energy production causes. In consequence, "simple economics" can't work in the long-term.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been obsessed with technology that skirts religious laws for a while now. Whole house pneumatic systems to run $800 dollar non-electric blenders. Elevators that spend the sabbath atomically opening on each floor. Automatic timers to complete forbidden circuits. I would love to spend an hour or two with a rabbinical scholar. Does walking in front of a motion senor complete a circuit? Are you allowed to ask an AI…

This stuff cracks me up. Do they think Hashem is up there looking down, thinking "Good one guys. You got me there. I thought I had all my bases covered. I'll save you some extra latkes when you get here." Someone help me understand why some folks treat this stuff like a tax loophole.

I think the idea is more to understand, "where is the line drawn" than to find a loophole.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#66

I'm not a fan of this personally. Compressed air is dangerous. A full tank is basically a bomb. While we have the technology to make this safe, it has to be regularly inspected. If your homeowner slacks on the inspections they could come home one day to discover their energy storage has turned itself into a crater and flattened all nearby structures. One thing to consider is that the heat generated by compressing the…

I mean, doesn't any big energy storage device become essentially a bomb? Batteries have some pretty impressive failure modes. As do large tanks of fuel. Even piped in energy sources can be dangerous as well. How many houses have literally exploded over a leaking gas line? Or burnt down due to faulty wiring?

Large amounts of energy stored in an area is inherently dangerous, no matter the form.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#67
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UT Austin's cannon-caliber railgun had some impressive pulsed-power output from flywheels for demos (a 150g projectile launched at nearly 2km/s), but they were fired a single-digit numbers of times.

It would seem that flywheels can store a lot of energy, but due to the form of the energy storage (kinetic) it’s difficult to discharge the current quickly, so to speak. Especially compared to something like a capacitor which is designed for rapidly discharging a literal current, as opposed to the analogous metaphorical motive current in a flywheel.

The flywheels GP refers to were homopolar generators [1]. They created an impressive current pulse, and extracted almost all the kinetic energy in less than one revolution.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would seem that flywheels can store a lot of energy, but due to the form of the energy storage (kinetic) it’s difficult to discharge the current quickly, so to speak. Especially compared to something like a capacitor which is designed for rapidly discharging a literal current, as opposed to the analogous metaphorical motive current in a flywheel.

The flywheels GP refers to were homopolar generators [1]. They created an impressive current pulse, and extracted almost all the kinetic energy in less than one revolution. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator

Like running an electromagnet in reverse to salvage current from a free-spinning motor? I’m trying to understand how the fields and forces interact.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#69

Slightly of-topic: compressed air is the preferred source of power for the tools of Amish people, since their religion doesn't allow them to use electricity or internal combustion engines. https://www.cottagecraftworks.com/home-goods/self-sufficient...

I personally think compressed air tools are underrated. I worked at a shop that used a lot of compressed air powered 'things'. We had a bunch of air powered hand tools that out performed electric equivalents by a fair bit. Most of the larger machines, though mostly electrically driven, had major components that were air powered and required a compressor. The force and energy available through natural physical process…

A major advantage of air tools over electrical tools is that the air flow and expansion causes cooling, which means you can run air tools harder for longer than equivalently-powered electrical tools, which can heat up dramatically when used hard.

Of course you have to mitigate moisture, but that is trivially solved with a moisture trap on the compressor's outlet or at the tool if you're using long air lines.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#70

I'm not a fan of this personally. Compressed air is dangerous. A full tank is basically a bomb. While we have the technology to make this safe, it has to be regularly inspected. If your homeowner slacks on the inspections they could come home one day to discover their energy storage has turned itself into a crater and flattened all nearby structures. One thing to consider is that the heat generated by compressing the…

All energy storage is some kind of bomb. We just go on with our life because they dont usually go off. Just search the news for LPG explosions and see how devastating it is. Even our cars run on explosions.
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