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Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

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Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#61

Post by uzakov »

refurb wrote: post #40
baybal2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will call this a "Elzin Effect": — When Boris Yeltsin went grocery shopping in Clear Lake — Yes, that Boris Yeltsin. In 1989 the future first president of post-Soviet Russia visited Houston, and what most impressed him wasn’t NASA. — It was a Randall’s grocery store, where the Houston Chronicle saw him “nodding his head in amazement” at the fish, produce and frozen pudding pops: — “He commented that if the Soviet p…

This story reminds me of when the Soviets fought their way into Germany in 1945, and eventually Berlin. The Red Army soldiers saw the wealth that Germany possessed and it pissed them off even more. They thought "why would a country this rich invade a poor country like ours?". The theory is that it was a contribution to the brutal treatment of Germans immediately before and after the end of the war (beyond the retribu…

> The Red Army soldiers saw the wealth that Germany possessed and it pissed them off even more. They thought "why would a country this rich invade a poor country like ours?".

Can you please share the story? This is the first time I hear of this

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#62

Post by baybal2 »

082349872349872 wrote: post #51
bonoboTP wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That Yeltsin story is a great anecdote but surely the Soviets did enough (and way more) spying to know basic and everyday facts about the US, like whether supermarket shelves are stocked. I mean, how much does it take to know this fact?

1976 soviet TV docco about New York: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA Didn't see any supermarkets, closest I found in a quick scrub was a shopping bag at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA&t=1100 San Francisco supermarket in Little Italy getting plenty of deliveries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swdtgcaFess&t=1085 California (1974) orchards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=445 and…

> 1976 soviet TV docco about New York:

Even such documentaries were curtailed, nor aired, or aired only in Moscow and very later, or screened privately.

This particular ones seem to be aimed not on your average union's citizen, and it feels much more like "internal propaganda." Such things were screened to lower level CPSU members, and whomever amounted to social elites as prophylaxis exactly against such scenario as above,

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#63

Post by TeMPOraL »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #46
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. Rural areas have farms, and there are plenty of government regulations about farming - and your money is tied to these. Government is less convenient too: Just a trip to the DMV or courthouse might take 30-60 minutes of driving. I think the parent was correct: Cities tend to have more diverse populations. Rural areas tend to have less, which means less folks to challenge your notions of the world (and m…

And pretty much all developed nations have subsidy programs for farmers who are a well organised political bloc.

And let's not forget religion, which has much larger influence on rural populations than it has on urban ones.

As an example, in Poland, it's widely observed that rural regions are much more supportive of the current ruling party than the urban ones; this is attributed in part to the good relationship between our ruling party and the Catholic Church in Poland.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#64

Post by aaron695 »

If you bother to read it, the conclusion contradicts what's expected .

Faith in government only declines if they are corrupt.

"The 3G expansion decreases government approval if there is at least some corruption. In few noncorrupt countries, the effect of 3G on government approval is actually positive."

So the internet is good for democracy even at the maxima?

Also censorship works well "Government approval falls with the expansion of 3G only when there is no internet censorship."

Neither I believe to be true. Censorship allows management of the population and will work, but it's hard, there should be some drop.

Anyway for corrupt governments without censorship I agree with the document and Starlink will sort it all out soon and bring in a few revolutions

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#65

Post by m463 »

baybal2 wrote: post #5
cujo wrote: post #2

Alternate headline: "People With Access to More Information Less Likely to Trust Blindly" The article references a paper that hasn't yet been peer reviewed either. This isn't much. "In general, people’s confidence in their leaders declined after getting 3g. However, the size of this effect varied. It was smaller in countries that allow a free press than in ones where traditional media are muzzled, and bigger in count…

I will call this a "Elzin Effect": — When Boris Yeltsin went grocery shopping in Clear Lake — Yes, that Boris Yeltsin. In 1989 the future first president of post-Soviet Russia visited Houston, and what most impressed him wasn’t NASA. — It was a Randall’s grocery store, where the Houston Chronicle saw him “nodding his head in amazement” at the fish, produce and frozen pudding pops: — “He commented that if the Soviet p…

there was a similar sort of story (maybe was it in wired?) that american television was treated as a fantasy until the opening credits of some popular tv show maybe in the credits panned out to see thousands of unfaked homes, each with a swimming pool.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#66

Post by Anka33 »

mjburgess wrote: post #41
yadco wrote: post #35

The only faith I have in government is their ability to mess up things in the stupidest way possible.

Despite, of course, almost everything working almost all of the time. And, of course, of almost everyone involved acting in good faith. We have elevated tiny mistakes to headlines, and politician's character flaws to some systematic issue with the whole of government. This has profound issues for governments actually being able to, eg., manage a pandemic. If no one trusts, you cannot coordinate. And trust is often wa…

These things does not work due to the government but despite the government.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#67

Post by romanoderoma »

mgkimsal wrote: post #54
romanoderoma wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but that something is not that obvious to people up on the social ladder. I think that's a bit of simplification. The idea that people in charge cannot understand them it's as old as modern humanity (hence 5-6 thousands years old) I believe that a good part of that "being easily pissed" has been engineered by the same people you think are too up on the social ladder to understand. What bothers me is that most of th…

> What does it matter to the proletarians if a famous person (say an actor) says something pro or against Brexit (for example). You have your vote, you cast it and that's what really matters to your category: representation. Sort of in agreement with you, but on this, I think there's good reason to be concerned with something like this. If people with social influence disagree with your position and are public about…

> If people with social influence disagree with your position and are public about it, they are in a position to influence more people than you can,

Yes, it does.

But in a different way than people think.

First of all, it only reinforces the positions pro or con, it doesn't actually move votes, it polarizes them though.

So in theory the best reaction would be to ignore the statement if you are against it, to not give it more exposure.

Secondly, attacking that person personally, commenting on social networks, usually with fake names, I doubt solves anything at all.

> Perhaps secondarily, people get upset with famous folks holding opposing views because it ruins our perceptions of them

That's my impression too, people, but I should simply say humans, we are all affected in a way or another, usually don't like to have their opinions challenged, because it puts them in the position of reconsidering their choices and we kinda have a natural protection against it that made us form tribes that lasted because members shared a common view and common beliefs against "the others".

Probably if that famous person is someone you follow and then you find out that they don't actually think like you do or like you believed they did, it can feel like a betrayal.

But on the other hand, I love Ted Nugent's music while I completely despise the man behind it...

I'm not shocked when he says what he says, I simply don't understand how that same man made something I like so much.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#68

Post by watwut »

refurb wrote: post #56
watwut wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how many villages were burned out as part of German expansion and ethnic cleansing, also given the nature of Stalin regime, it is quite unlikely that Russians needed to see German riches to get pissed and violent. The second world war in the East was brutal, even more brutal then the one on the West, which was super brutal anyway.

Agreed. That's why I said "pissed them off even more" and didn't say "that's why they were pissed".

To me this sounds more the the sort of thing foreigners tend to project on Eastern Europe (or whoever is outsider) then anything having anything to do with history or sociology.

The story is generally unlikely to be "general sentiment" of Russian soldiers. Among other things, there was enough mandatory political propaganda targeted at soldiers for them to not ask questions like this all that much, not loud.

> why would a country this rich invade a poor country like ours?

This question implies that soldiers assume the war was started because aggressor was poor and struggling, attacking out of no other choice. That gives quite a lot of benefit of doubt toward heavily demonized enemy in the war.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#69

Post by 082349872349872 »

baybal2 wrote: post #62
082349872349872 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1976 soviet TV docco about New York: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA Didn't see any supermarkets, closest I found in a quick scrub was a shopping bag at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2_olezbbA&t=1100 San Francisco supermarket in Little Italy getting plenty of deliveries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swdtgcaFess&t=1085 California (1974) orchards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE_RDrsmMg&t=445 and…

> 1976 soviet TV docco about New York: Even such documentaries were curtailed, nor aired, or aired only in Moscow and very later, or screened privately. This particular ones seem to be aimed not on your average union's citizen, and it feels much more like "internal propaganda." Such things were screened to lower level CPSU members, and whomever amounted to social elites as prophylaxis exactly against such scenario as…

I've also run across a few major US cities in filmstrips on https://diafilmy.su , were those censored as well?

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#70

Post by vmception »

pydry wrote: post #60
baybal2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will call this a "Elzin Effect": — When Boris Yeltsin went grocery shopping in Clear Lake — Yes, that Boris Yeltsin. In 1989 the future first president of post-Soviet Russia visited Houston, and what most impressed him wasn’t NASA. — It was a Randall’s grocery store, where the Houston Chronicle saw him “nodding his head in amazement” at the fish, produce and frozen pudding pops: — “He commented that if the Soviet p…

Time magazine once bragged on its cover how the US helped Yeltsin win the election: https://off-guardian.org/2018/02/19/yanks-to-the-rescue-time... He was essentially Russia's Trump although a) probably a lot more in America's pocket than vice versa and b) it's difficult to overstate how much Russia suffered under him. They suffered enormously in the 90s - quality of life and life expectancies declined enormously. No…

Most Americans I know that have spent more than a week in Western or Central Europe, want to be in Western or Central Europe.

Not quite the same as Russia, but the concept being undermined is that USSR was a superpower that fell leaving only the US. When, at this point, most countries that were aligned with US offer better infrastructure and average-case opportunities for people, while dulling the best-case of rapid excess wealth attainment and practically nullifying the worst case of poverty, incarceration and marginalization which is a constant threat in the US.

Without a millenium of geopolitical baggage, Americans don't really care which country in Europe and sample them all for an unparalleled combination of benefits.

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