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TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

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Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#61

Post by gimmeThaBeet »

ksec wrote: post #52
gimmeThaBeet wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I thought Samsung trademarked the name MBCFET. Not saying that is in fact worth much, just that I know for a fact Samsung has been concrete about when this is going to be a process customers can use. On paper I don't think it's risky to say everyone is looking at GAAFETs and MBCFETs, they're the evolution of finFETs (okay, we have the fin, what about more than one fin? Okay, how about the channel is surrounded b…

That is certainly not true. TSMC has always had a conservative culture. They dont aim at x% of improvement per process node like Intel. GAA for 3nm has long been known to be not ready for 2022. They actually mentioned this in 2019. But it was only confirmed later at a conference that Anandtech picked it up. Mainstream media being an echo chamber decide to copy each other and the news spread like wild fire. So it was…

You would have to be more specific about what you are claiming is untrue, that's a bit vague.

I'm aware of how TSMC felt about the prospects of GAA at 3nm, and their view of Samsung's yield prospects (i.e. not great).

Sure, it's logical to push GAA to the next node if you can, but part of TSMCs style is that they didn't even confirm that they were moving past fins until earlier this year.

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#62

Post by ksec »

egsmi wrote: post #56
ksec wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do companies like TSMC already have a plan as to how to deal with "true" 7nm or is a lot more research still needed? If you will forgive the expression. Yes and No. Yes in that TSMC has ideas / plans scaling all the way to 0.8nm, targeting 2030. That is only a few steps above what you described as true 7nm. No in that no one knows if it will work. We know Quantum Tunnelling will hit some day, some where, some how, a…

Technically it’s figured out. Gate-all-around has been experimentally demonstrated at pitches less than FinFET. The primary problem is, who is going to pay it. The economics are very tough at these 1s of nm nodes but hopefully that’s only a transitory problem.

You are talking about GAA at 2nm, I was talking about sub 1nm ( Node naming ) Tech. Which the OP was referring to "true" 7nm or Gate pitch / metal pitch at sub 7nm. We are still quite far away from figuring those out.

But yes, I agree the economics model is tough as I have been stating on various forums for years. That is part of the reason why we see Semi-conductors consolidation, like Marvell, Broadcom.

My best guess is that some time in 2026/ 28 we might have to stretch the cycle to three years instead of two. Giving more time to amortised those cost. But HyperScaler Cloud Market seems to be not limited by any R&D funding so I am actually quite optimistic we could see the current 2 year cadence all the way to 2030. Anything beyond is just too hard to predict or infer.

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#63

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

ksec wrote: post #52
gimmeThaBeet wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I thought Samsung trademarked the name MBCFET. Not saying that is in fact worth much, just that I know for a fact Samsung has been concrete about when this is going to be a process customers can use. On paper I don't think it's risky to say everyone is looking at GAAFETs and MBCFETs, they're the evolution of finFETs (okay, we have the fin, what about more than one fin? Okay, how about the channel is surrounded b…

That is certainly not true. TSMC has always had a conservative culture. They dont aim at x% of improvement per process node like Intel. GAA for 3nm has long been known to be not ready for 2022. They actually mentioned this in 2019. But it was only confirmed later at a conference that Anandtech picked it up. Mainstream media being an echo chamber decide to copy each other and the news spread like wild fire. So it was…

>conservative culture

They don't even have twitter! (Or do they and I've been too stupid to find it? Official I mean.)

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#64

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

egsmi wrote: post #57
1000100_1000101 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the explanation you're looking for, but the CTO at TSMC co-invented the modern FinFET transistor. They've probably good a really good grasp on what issues block development of smaller features, and know how to find ways around those limits. https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/how-the-fat...

He also wrote an excellent introduction to semiconductor physics textbook, that Berkeley hosts for free! https://www.chu.berkeley.edu/modern-semiconductor-devices-fo...

Thanks!

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#65

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

tmd83 wrote: post #60

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3otqUu-7WUQ Surprising for the flashy marketing style of the video it really explained to me the difference between FINFET, GAA and MBCFET really well. Is Samsung and IBM stronger in structural R&D then they are at FABs?

Yes. That was a good one. Acessible.

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#66

Post by valusr »

AareyBaba wrote: post #46
Nokinside wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number 7nm 5nm etc. ceased to refer anything physical after the technology moved on from planar transistors. Now it's just a commercial name for a generation. The most important dimensions are the gate pitch and metal pitch. For TSMC's 7nm process they are something like 60 and 40 nm and go down in the future to something like 30 nm and 20 nm in the 2nm process. Fin width might be the closest thing to commercial…

For perspective, 2nm is approximately how much your fingernail grows in the time it took to read this sentence. (3.47mm per month)/(30 * 24 * 60 * 60 seconds) = 1.33nm/second

That's a fun factoid to know. Thanks
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