China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend • Hacker News Board

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#61

Post by gumby » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #48

gumby wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking of public FB, Twitter etc activity. But you raise an important point. FB scans and processes all FB messenger traffic as does Twitter DMs (unlike, say, iMessage or, currently, SMS). They use the info for the usual customization, profiling, and ad sales. I don’t believe they sell the actual data itself but really there’s no reason why not, or why they couldn’t sell scoring info to the big guys. And now…

FB also doesn’t have a prison system or armed forces.

The point is that the US uses the private sector to collect info that they are legally barred from collecting. Then they obtain that info from the private sector, via spying, classified request, or simple purchase.

So for example, private sector info is used by ICE to hunt down undocumented workers and imprison them. The end result is that armed agents put people in (private sector) prisons, no different from other countries in end result.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#62

Post by HashingtheCode » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

lowdose wrote: post #27

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

Maybe this system is able to make sociopaths more accountable for the suffering they cause. We have no data on people with this spectrum of mental illness because they do not report themselves. Estimations on the number of sociopaths in the wild are anywhere between 1% to 5 % of the population. If this social credit score is able to limit the damage these people can cause during their lifetime I would say the experim…

[flagged]

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#63

Post by TallGuyShort » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #46

Barrin92 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you meet many bankrupt people on luxury cruises and first class airline tickets? What's astonishing to me is how we in the West have created this metaphysical alternative reality where poor people are taught to think they have the chance to live in mansions or fly on luxury airlines, if it weren't for the fact that they're poor, of course. In contrast to the cruel Chinese, we also have majestic legal equality, where…

> where the millionaires and the poor are equally punished for sleeping on park benches The only logical alternative would be that millionaires and poor to be unequally punished for sleeping on park benches. How's that better?

There's also the alternative of not punishing it at all, because they're just using a first-come-first-serve public resource when they have no better alternative.

I don't need to sleep on a park bench because I own a house with beds, so punishing me equally for it isn't really equality. Ironically I bet I actually could take a nap on a park bench with less chance of the cops being called than a homeless person anyway.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#64

Post by sleepysysadmin » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #57

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt some Karen complaining. That's an example, but the reality is that laws are tremendously extensive. Yet generally unenforced. When the government can start enforcing. Government will grow even larger and more specific.

> No doubt some Karen complaining. I have some doubt about that. > That's an example, but the reality is that laws are tremendously extensive. Yet generally unenforced. When the government can start enforcing. Government will grow even larger and more specific. I'm pretty confident that the current cost of the above-cited ordinance is zero, and at one point in the past the value it provided was a small positive. I ju…

>I'm pretty confident that the current cost of the above-cited ordinance is zero, and at one point in the past the value it provided was a small positive.

What I was trying to say in my first post was that it's not the current enforcement. It's just an example of the government becoming too large and the robot police force of the future will use these dead laws to enforce. This will lead to disenfranchisement.

>Sounds pretty dumb, right? However, Bear wrestling matches are (or were) a thing, and it seems like it came to be (rightly) considered a form of animal mistreatment:

Personally I like said bear law. This isn't about silly laws, it's about how unenforced laws have become. The size of government wants to grow, but right now the resources of the law enforcement dictate the size. In the near future the resources of law enforcement will quickly allow growth of government again.

Another example is grass. In many cities it's illegal to have long grass. However, enforcement is non-existent or at least requires someone snitching on you. In the future there will be robot cops who will go around and inspection the entire city on a regular basis providing fines.

Or snow, you have laws normally that say, you have until 10am to clear the snow from the city's sidewalks and keep it free of snow and ice for the remaining day. You are typically in constant violation if you arent actively cleaning it all day long.

Out of curiousity, do you think there will be cities that have robots that cut everyone's grass or shovel to snow? Or will they be punitive with $500 fines.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#65

Post by tomc1985 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #17

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes I don't know how anyone can say this with a straight face. In the west you can be bankrupt and still buy a first class airline ticket or go to a concert or do damn near anything else so long as you aren't using credit to do it.

you meet many bankrupt people on luxury cruises and first class airline tickets? What's astonishing to me is how we in the West have created this metaphysical alternative reality where poor people are taught to think they have the chance to live in mansions or fly on luxury airlines, if it weren't for the fact that they're poor, of course. In contrast to the cruel Chinese, we also have majestic legal equality, where…

> we also have majestic legal equality, where the millionaires and the poor are equally punished for sleeping on park benches

Yeah but why would a millionaire do that? That's not majestic, more like unequal exposure

Most other countries have similarly "majestic" legal equality, but again, you're not going to find people with a home to go to sleeping in park benches. China is hardly special in that department.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#66

Post by ardy42 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #64

ardy42 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No doubt some Karen complaining. I have some doubt about that. > That's an example, but the reality is that laws are tremendously extensive. Yet generally unenforced. When the government can start enforcing. Government will grow even larger and more specific. I'm pretty confident that the current cost of the above-cited ordinance is zero, and at one point in the past the value it provided was a small positive. I ju…

>I'm pretty confident that the current cost of the above-cited ordinance is zero, and at one point in the past the value it provided was a small positive. What I was trying to say in my first post was that it's not the current enforcement. It's just an example of the government becoming too large and the robot police force of the future will use these dead laws to enforce. This will lead to disenfranchisement. >Sound…

> What I was trying to say in my first post was that it's not the current enforcement. It's just an example of the government becoming too large and the robot police force of the future will use these dead laws to enforce. This will lead to disenfranchisement....

> ...This isn't about silly laws, it's about how unenforced laws have become. The size of government wants to grow, but right now the resources of the law enforcement dictate the size. In the near future the resources of law enforcement will quickly allow growth of government again.

> Another example is grass. In many cities it's illegal to have long grass. However, enforcement is non-existent or at least requires someone snitching on you. In the future there will be robot cops who will go around and inspection the entire city on a regular basis providing fines.

I think you're making a false assumption that the government is totally unresponsive to its citizens and will engage in infinite make-work enforcement to allow itself to grow maximally even if that means everyone else bears an unbearable burden. IMHO, the existence of these "dumb" laws is actually a disproof of that.

These laws remain on the books because it's basically free to leave them there. Once they start to become a burden, they'll be rewritten to be less onerous or removed completely.

I'm also 100% confident that, in our lifetimes, we won't be seeing AGI cops diligently enforcing the letter of the laws all the time.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#67

Post by Barrin92 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 7:12 PM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #65

Barrin92 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you meet many bankrupt people on luxury cruises and first class airline tickets? What's astonishing to me is how we in the West have created this metaphysical alternative reality where poor people are taught to think they have the chance to live in mansions or fly on luxury airlines, if it weren't for the fact that they're poor, of course. In contrast to the cruel Chinese, we also have majestic legal equality, where…

> we also have majestic legal equality, where the millionaires and the poor are equally punished for sleeping on park benches Yeah but why would a millionaire do that? That's not majestic, more like unequal exposure Most other countries have similarly "majestic" legal equality, but again, you're not going to find people with a home to go to sleeping in park benches. China is hardly special in that department.

>Yeah but why would a millionaire do that? That's not majestic, more like unequal exposure

Yes I was being sarcastic, that's the point. Abstract notions of equality are meaningless. We can pride ourselves on the rule of law in comparison to China, but the law already is such that it predetermines who gets the stick and who doesn't.

Same is true with the social credit system. We may claim we have some sort of abstract choice, but when your neighbour installs their ring camera looking into your living room, and your healthcare premiums goes up if you don't put that Apple smartwatch on, there's no actual choice.

It's exactly that China is hardly different, just more blunt about where our social and technical engineering leads us.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#68

Post by free_rms » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #60

np- wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by common man you mean Han Chinese who live in major urban areas - then yes, your observation is mostly correct. But the expense seems to be the systematic oppression of rural populations and ethnic minorities (Uighurs, Tibetans, etc). The virtual (and physical) enslavement already exists [1], it's not really some hypothetical. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...

> But the expense seems to be... There does indeed seem to be signs of oppression of ethnic minorities in China, but to me this is a relatively unrelated anomaly on a statistical basis compared to the general question of where do the fruits of labour in China go: to those doing the work, or to the ruling class. Most of what I have observed suggests that there is a "rising tide lifts all boats" phenomenon underway, al…

Also, to tack back to economics, "rural ethnic minorities" means "third world subsistence farming with no health or dental care".

The approach the government is taking there is certainly heavy-handed, but I think we should be careful not to fetishize their poverty as something to be preserved.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#69

Post by dang » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

disown wrote: post #53

HashingtheCode wrote: post #2

Nice summary on their website about the privacy restrictions and surveillance of the population due to their dystopian Social Credit System. If people aren't that familiar with SCS, this should bring them up to speed. I understand that this SCS is not yet fully active and in varying parts being tested throughout the country, but, at some point it will be ready and go live nationally. What's really worrying is that th…

My god, you sound exactly like the mindless drones that george orwell described in 1984. Instead of the "2 minute hate", you just participate online in a "2 minute rant". And instead of "eurasia/eastasia was always the enemy", you have "china is always the enemy". And instead of sneering at "Emmanual Goldstein", you sneer at "Xi Jinping". What is more orwellian than your comment: "We should be ever more vigilant and…

Please don't break the site guidelines like this. I realize that it can be extremely frustrating to encounter comments that are so wrong from your perspective, especially when you're representing a minority viewpoint in the community. But we simply can't have commenters doing this sort of flamewar on the site—the community won't survive it. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

If you want to read moderation explanations where this kind of thing has come up in the past about China-related topics, there are a bunch here:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

And here are explanations about the problem of arguing a contrary or minority position on HN:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#70

Post by mistermann » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

free_rms wrote: post #68

mistermann wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the expense seems to be... There does indeed seem to be signs of oppression of ethnic minorities in China, but to me this is a relatively unrelated anomaly on a statistical basis compared to the general question of where do the fruits of labour in China go: to those doing the work, or to the ruling class. Most of what I have observed suggests that there is a "rising tide lifts all boats" phenomenon underway, al…

Also, to tack back to economics, "rural ethnic minorities" means "third world subsistence farming with no health or dental care". The approach the government is taking there is certainly heavy-handed, but I think we should be careful not to fetishize their poverty as something to be preserved.

> "rural ethnic minorities" means "third world subsistence farming with no health or dental care".

Are you sure? It doesn't mean it by semantic definition, so is there another ~authoritative source you're referring to that establishes that meaning?

Rural ethnic minorities in China live a life that consists solely of "third world subsistence farming with no health or dental care", or they do not. And then on top of this is the question of why, specifically, is it plausibly because they are ethnic minorities, as in: no non-minority Chinese exist that have a "third world subsistence farming with no health or dental care".

Is this not the point of contention?

I do not have this deep of knowledge of on the ground reality in China. Is there a data source of some kind we can turn to to resolve this uncertainty?