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Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

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Re: Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soviet block country here as well. However, profession training schools are not communist invention and have their place in educating people for useful jobs. At least, I don't know how to build a high-quality bathroom and I don't think that people who can should not be valued less than someone who can make a terrible electron app. My UX in the former is much better tbh. :) My issue is that this stuff now pretends to…

I agree with you about PTUs having their place in planned and free market economies alike. I think you’re saying that if people have the option to go to a good “traditional” school and learn CS there (and meet a bunch of students and professors, etc), they shouldn’t throw away that option for something like this, is that right? On the other hand, I feel like there are plenty of people who have either graduated with a…

My issue with those courses is that they teach you the "hows" of a problem, but not the "Whys". Completing them, you know how to perform a certain task, maybe even according to best practices, but you don't know why those practices are good, when they are bad choice, what are the alternatives. Ones the assumptions of the course break, it becomes useless. Without the deeper understanding of the field, moving to a newer technology, framework, or even gui interface might turn out to be a struggle.

Yes, such courses might be useful to fill in gaps in one's education, but it can't substitute said education. Low-quality tech graduates might profit, but humanities graduates won't become decent developers, at least not without continuous training for years which might take as long as a second degree.

Re: Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know how it is today but when I went, you had to take a certain number of credits in humanities, social sciences, etc, no matter what your major was. So while they didn’t specifically mandate “Greek Mythology,” they mandated a certain number of credits from courses in that bucket, which stretched the time commitment for the degree at least a year from what it would have been if I focused on just my major requ…

CS requires some humanities and CS requires mythology is pretty different. And ideally CS would include some relevant topics for understanding how tech can inadvertently mess up people's lives.

> ideally CS would include some relevant topics for understanding how tech can inadvertently mess up people's lives

I saw this elsewhere on HN and thought it was worth bringing to this thread. https://www.zdnet.com/article/a-young-stanford-graduate-trie...

Re: Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

#63

I see a lot of negativity in this thread. What’s wrong with Google giving a bunch of people a taste and the opportunity to grow? I prefer to believe in the ability of people to reach beyond their station in life. Sometimes all they need is inspiration. If Google can provide that it’s great.

I don't get the negativity either. For someone with experience they could do it essentially for free if they have time and form their opinion that way.

They even give people a $150.00 cash card if they commit to completing the course in X number of months.

Overall, as I posted elsewhere I think the IT one is a pretty good intro to the subject, definitely best for people who have some skills and passion for the topic tho.

Re: Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes, let my project be managed by someone with a 6 mo course. I'm sure that will work just fine

Six months of onboarding is plenty of time to form someone you'd want to keep around.

No.

Not because of the project management side (which ok, can be a long and specialized career by itself) but by the side of "how do you have someone manage something they don't know how it works" (which is needed in smaller projects)

Re: Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

#66
post #2

The current offerings are: - Data Analyst - Project Manager - UX Designer - IT Support Specialist I wonder how specific to Google products those courses are. It sounds like Google's answer to Microsoft Certified Microsoft Product Fixer certifications. It's just courses on Coursera for $49/month.

Products ... or internal tooling and processes.

There'sba long history of dominant monopolies structuring pedagogy and business skills training to their own internal ops, dating to DuPont, GM, AT&T, IBM, Xerox, Microsoft, Cisco, etc., etc., etc.

Re: Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that’s completely untrue. College degrees are well worth the investment — the earning potential increases of having a college degree vastly dwarf tuition costs. When people are young, debt is a problem, but those same people continue to see (exponential) income growth over the course of their careers and eventually beat the debt, and then some. Folks without degrees struggle with income growth.

This is just... not true? At least not among anyone I’ve ever known who didn’t go to school for CS, law, or med school.

study backing me up: https://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2019/06/despit...

Re: Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

#68

The author doesn't seem to understand how supply and demand work. Unless there's about to be a massive increase in the availability of these jobs, this is going to create a bubble that will reduce these salaries and lower the skill level in these positions.

It doesn't push down salaries but does increase the signal to noise ratio when it comes to hiring and therefore the cost of talent acquisition.

In influx of bootcamps in my area caused something similar with Software Engineers. We didn't want to automatically exclude people from these institutions but we ended up having to.

Re: Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

#69

The author seems to exist in a permanent state of enthusiasm, for mega corps and their corpy things. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffcm&q=Justin+Bariso Just an observation.

Well just any move made by FAANG will raise waves of enthusiasm and loud "genius!!!" shouting... regardless what the move was about.

Re: Google's Plan to Disrupt the College Degree Is Absolute Genius

#70
post #6

Is there such a term as "edmill"? A process of mass producing cheap labor for low-paid positions. This post just smells of hype and marketing for something like that.

Short answer: Yes, highly-focused skills-centric but narrow education has a long history.

Longer answer:

It's useful to keep in mind the (usually) unstated goals of educational systems:

- Produce a technically-skilled, but politically pliable, working class.

- Produce a managerially competent, but not revolutionary, management and professional class.

- Persist existing power structures, whatever their form; political, cultural, corporate, religious, technical, epistemic.

The fundamental division in education has long been between liberal education and technical education, and can be traced to the emergence of the modern university in the 11th century (Bologna, 1088, Oxford, 1096), if not to the Romans and Greeks distinguishing the ars liberalis, and artes mechanicae, the latter also called the "servile" or "mechanical" arts. This later expands to basic literacy skills ("'readin', 'ritin', and 'rithmetic", the "three Rs"), and basic skills vs. higher-order thinking skills, on which there is much long-standing debate and contention.

Expansion and reform were limited by numerous factors, including a monopoly by law in England establishing Cambridge and Oxford as England's only permitted universities until 1827. (https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/medieval-universit...)

In the industrial era, Prussian and Humboldtian education reforms instituted universal compulsory scientific and technical (rather than religious) education, largely at state expense, from Kindergarten, and including a university system for advanced education. With increasing demand for basically literate workers under factory and clerical work as well as technically-skilled workers in heavy industry, chemical, agricultural, transport, communications, information, government, and military sectors, the basic outlines of this system were widely adopted in industrialised countries through the 19th and 20th centuries.

The first technical, polytechnic, and engineering universities emerged in the 19th century. M.I.T. as a leading exemplar, though not the first, was founded in 1861. It was preceded by others, with Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI) possibly the earliest in 1821. Notably, technical schools were among the first to offer specifically-focused courses of study, persisting to this day in the numbered M.I.T. catologue, where lower-numbered offerings are generally more fundamental and earliest-established, modulo some subsequent subdivision.

Major expansions occurred through and following major wars, including the US Civil Way (founding of M.I.T.), and the first and second World Wars, as well as the post-war / Cold War era, notably Vannevar Bush's "Science, The Endless Frontier" (https://nsf.gov/od/lpa/nsf50/vbush1945.htm)

The Academic Major system began emerging in the early 19th century, though it would not really reach recognisable form (or be named) until after 1875. It replaced a general liberal education university system without formal major emphasis.

The post-1960 public research university is exemplified through projects such as the California Master Plan for Higher Education, 1960, strongly driven by governor Pat Brown and University of California president Clark Kerr. That effort was itself a reaction to an earlier technological monopoly, that of the railroads. Similar expansions occurred elsewhere, see the Robbins Report (1963) for the UK, or a set of Chinese initiatives since the 1990s: the Double First Class University Plan, Project 211, Project 985, or the C9 League.

In the US (and strongly similarly in much of the industrialised world), a de facto if not explicit hierarchy of prestigious highly-selective top-tier universities (largely private though with some public institutions), other highly selective schools (many state university systems). These are followed by less selective institutions, many formerly state colleges, "normal schools" (teachers' colleges), and numerous smaller private schools, and some polytechnics and ag & tech schools. Community colleges ("junior colleges") may feed 4-year programmes or directly train workforce, and are generally not selective (all applicants are accepted). Public and private vocational schools, as well as company-specific credentialing programmes (CCIE, RHCE, MCSA, OCP, Java SE, etc.) provide a range of skills training and certification, some basic, some advanced technical, some continuing professional education.

The various roles of education as teaching basic skills, higher skills, and cultural indoctrination, were commented on by John Stuart Mill ~1860s Britain, as noted by Hans Jensen, subject to various forms of control and coercion, largely via funding or lack thereof:

First, the universities were given the task of providing an unceasing supply of ideologically correct candidates for vital positions in government, church, and business. The state was able to make the faculties of the "venerable institutions" of higher education, or rather indoctrination, assume this duty because it controlled appointments and held the purse from which "emoluments" flowed into the coffers of academics....

The state devised a second educational strategy in order to prevent such a calamity from occurring. According to Mill, the "elementary schools for children of the working classes" were given the task of ensuring that the poor would continue to accept docilely their dismal station in life. It was very easy for the state to force the public schools to assume this role. It did so simply by failing malignantly to allocate sufficient funds for the operations of what Mill identified contemptuously as "places called schools"...

Hans E. Jensen, "John Stuart Mill's Theories of Wealth and Income Distribution". Review of Social Economy. Pages 491-507. Published online: 05 Nov 2010. (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00346760110081599)

(A more complete cite and discussion here: https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/6x7u6a/on_the_...)

A list of Wikipedia articles addressing much of this history and development:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artes_mechanicae

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocational_education

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_skills

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_three_Rs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_thinking

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standards-based_education_refo...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humboldtian_model_of_higher_ed...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_technology#United...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Institute_of_Tec...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rensselaer_Polytechnic_Institu...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land-grant_university

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vannevar_Bush

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_major

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_Hig...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_Report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_First_Class_University_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_certification

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