Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US • Hacker News Board

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#61

Post by btilly » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

throwaway5752 wrote: post #49

btilly wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost like...their reflex is to fly until they are out of the smoke. Which is adaptive when dealing with small fires, and lethal when they are unable to fly far enough to get out of the smoke.

I'd be happy to read any reputable paper, article, or discussion thread you can find about it. Seems like something that would be falsifiable and has been researched already, so not worth debating about in the hypothetical.

I am not a researcher, but https://www.audubon.org/news/how-wildfires-affect-birds would seem to be a reputable source. It was written in 2017, but is relevant to the current situation.

Multiple passages in it are relevant to this issue. Birds do try to fly away from fire. We have evidence that smoke inhalation is worse for birds than mammals (which would mean that birds would need to flee smoke, and not just the flames). And the possibility of birds dying of exhaustion from trying to fly away was already a concern to wildlife conservationists.

None of which is proof. But it is all suggestive that I'm making a reasonable guess as to why they are dying.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#62

Post by catmistake » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

MiroF wrote: post #25

steffan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Habitability for humans . It's more or less a self-correcting problem

Our society is so odd. I find it astonishing that so many people can be cavalier about the deaths of millions of people when it comes to environmental destruction in a way that would be totally socially unacceptable if you were talking about targeted killings or genocide.

> about the deaths of millions of people when it comes to environmental destruction

You're not getting it. With global environmental catastrophe the concern is not about the deaths of millions of people. It is about the deaths of all people everywhere. A symptom of the problem of environmental catastrophe is those that are cavalier about the deaths of entire species of wildlife. The planet will be fine, the plant and wildlife will recover... though it may not be the same plant or wildlife. But once humans are gone, there is very little change we are coming back. So, to be clear, though humans have and are making he planet uninhabitable for myriad of species, reducing the available variety of species, which we, in fact, depend on... it is a web... but we are also making the planet uninhabitable for people.

Serious and monumental efforts in conservation of plant and wildlife and habitat is a damn good place to start. The more natural habitat there is, the more plant and wildlife there is, the better it will be for us. First thing is first... the oil industry and the chemical industry needs to go away within the next 10 years. Government, which people control, needs to make all that crap unprofitable. All pollution must cease, and we need to figure out how to clean up what has been done. Let's not bitch about energy, nor evangelize nuclear power. Let's just bite the bullet for a few generations and force everything and everyone to generate their own energy, and require that it be clean.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#63

Post by charwalker » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

mhb wrote: post #46

gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

we’re still having arguments about whether people are the cause. Of. Course. We. Are. You seem to discount the anthropocentric argument (as it should be) and then promptly jump right in to it. Why does it matter what the cause is?

There is a large chunk of the US voter population that thinks that even if climate change is real it isn't human driven and therefor totally natural or by God's design.

So of course nothing should be done about it because either it isn't real or it isn't human caused.

This is also the group that often votes single issue or directly against their best interest much like What's the matter with Kansas. Surprisingly, Kansas itself hasn't read that book and seems to repeat history every time the GOP wants less taxes.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#64

Post by Retric » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

mhb wrote: post #46

gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

we’re still having arguments about whether people are the cause. Of. Course. We. Are. You seem to discount the anthropocentric argument (as it should be) and then promptly jump right in to it. Why does it matter what the cause is?

It’s generally more difficult to actually fix something without knowing the cause.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#65

Post by havelhovel » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #32

havelhovel wrote: post #20

I have been told on this forum that the men and women working in wildlife conservation are in it for vanity or for self gratification. Relatedly, I have been told on this forum that there is nothing that regular folks can do about climate change. But then events like this happen, and no one reflects on how fatally pessimistic this community can be. Are we ourselves not capable of forecasting the effect of a burning s…

The single most effective thing you can do for climate change, by far, is vote. The climate is one of those tragedy-of-the-commons problems that can only be solved when everybody consents to work on it together. It takes only a relatively small proportion to prevent any progress from being made. We certainly to have enough resources to intervene, but doing "something -- no matter how trivial" fails to minimize the de…

I agree that voting (for the party that accepts climate change) is a helpful step that US citizens can take. But why prove my point by seeking to tear my idea apart? We need more action, not less. Isn't voting and picking up trash in a park better than just voting? Isn't voting, picking up trash in a park, and reducing meat consumption even better?

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#66

Post by bonestamp2 » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:40 PM UTC

MiroF wrote: post #23

kzrdude wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is important to remember this framing, though. So that we remember what we want, and can take the right actions to get there. We want a healthy, happy life for these X humans and to accommodate that we need Y, Z. I don't think everyone understands this, and I also think it is a key to reaching more people with the message - of why we need to make changes to the status quo.

Many people do not care remotely about the lives of others that they can't conceptualize. I'm increasingly worried that large segments of the population will not be reached by that message or any message that isn't about direct harm to themselves or their loved ones.

On that note, I always knew we were the problem, but this reminds me of something I heard that changed the way I thought about it...

If aliens were flying past our planet and saw all of our concrete and deforestation from space, they'd assume we're an unstoppable virus that will destroy the ecosystem if a cure is not found. That perspective hit me in a way, at a scale, that I have never thought about before. We see many of our actions as "development" which tends to have a positive meaning, but from space that same "development" looks like a disease that is overrunning the planet.

A little further out there, but if other intelligent life exists and they saw us as a virus, they might try to cure the planet by eradicating us.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#67

Post by vixen99 » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:40 PM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

Is forest management, among other things, really that complicated in terms of what one has to do?

The California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CAL FIRE), cites shrubs and live and dead vegetation as in forest fires, 'being an easily ignitable fuel source that helps spread the flames quickly over vast distances.'

It's worth noting that NASA reports that global fires are down by 25% between 2003 and 2019. In other words, there has been a global decrease in the total number of square kilometers burned each year. Africa 'dominates in terms of the sheer number of fires'.

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145421/building-a-l...

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#68

Post by blisterpeanuts » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:40 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #55

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mount St. Helens (in Washington state) had a massive eruption in 1980, causing huge ecological and economic damage that lasted for years.[1] But, the region recovered. Similar such natural events, such as Typhoon Maria, have caused massive casualties and damage. Yet, the Earth and humanity have persisted. I wouldn't worry about anything happening to our planet and our ecosphere, short of a mass extinction event like…

"the region recovered" Yeah, because the volcano stopped erupting. This current disaster is not short-term.

You mean the forest fires? Depending on the region, they'll abate either from human intervention or seasonal snow/rain, or a combination.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#69

Post by 1234letshaveatw » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:40 PM UTC

jlengrand wrote: post #28

havelhovel wrote: post #20

I have been told on this forum that the men and women working in wildlife conservation are in it for vanity or for self gratification. Relatedly, I have been told on this forum that there is nothing that regular folks can do about climate change. But then events like this happen, and no one reflects on how fatally pessimistic this community can be. Are we ourselves not capable of forecasting the effect of a burning s…

So much this. The events from the past years have already been difficult to digest. But every time I come and read comments, I'm even more depressed, anxious. "no matter if you don't drive, or stop meat; it won't be enough". "nice that you're stopping commuting, but that won't suffice". "offsetting by planting trees is not good enough compared to net zero". Or worse, dismissive like "it only helps with your own self-…

I oftentimes see that parroted and I believe it is more slacktivism and politically motivated than anything- "Only my guy can fix everything! All I can do is like his political ads and keep on doing what I do"

For instance, how many times have you observed articles that call out cruise ships as "super polluters". Wouldn't not going on cruises be much more impactful than any sort of negotiated regulation? I believe the individual can absolutely do their part

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#70

Post by just_fred » Wed, Sep 16, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

ohyes wrote: post #47

gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

But frankly, it doesn't matter if we're the cause or not, we're the only thing around that could potentially do anything to save ourselves. So ya know, we kinda should regardless of whose fault it is.

We would have to shut down 90% of the pollutants world wide to do anything. Will make the Covid shutdowns look like a long weekend. And even then it might not make a difference if climate change is out of our control. You willing to do that?